Gotham in Clayface Is Boiling Hot And Batman Is Missing!?

Was Clayface Ever The Good Guy

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We've just finished watching Clayface and I got a question for you, Brash. Was Matt Hagen, Clayface, the good guy of this movie?

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Well, no, would be the broader term, but in a way, I can see his side of things. His revenge was justified. For a point of for a point of time, for a bit of time, I could see I could see I could see the vision. I could see the goal.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Yeah, I I think that a lot of audiences have a point in this movie where they were like, okay, I'm no longer sympathizing with Matt Hagen. And we'll talk about that in a second on the Phantom Porters podcast.

Why Body Horror Works Here

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Welcome to the Phantom Porters Podcast, the show that proves that your favorite fandom and movie has something to teach you. I'm here with Brash. How are you today, Brash?

SPEAKER_01 0:54

I am very, very good. It's hot.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Yes, it's hot. Where we live, it is boiling close to the sun. Very, very hot indeed. But we are here to talk about one of this summer's hottest movie, Playface. Took me by surprise, to be honest, because as this podcast has well documented, not a horror dude, Brash. Not a horror dude, unlike yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

And this one, but this one's and this one's body horror, which is like usually like the worst of like even horror people are like, the horror.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know what, actually, and I don't know what this says about me and my horror preferences, but I was okay with this movie. Syle show movies, I'm okay with. Body horrors, not too bad for me. But like horror movies where it's the psychological thriller or it could be real, or the person is actually just a bent individual, I'm like, those ones mess me around more. So when I say I'm not a horror dude, I think I do like body horror.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Well, so I'm I'm I'm a bit the same. I'm I'm I'm more like I'll still I still watch them, but like the ones that are like based off through stories where people actually did that shit, I'm like, ah, I'll actually based it. I'll I watch it purely just so I can see the signs. So if anyone else tries to do that shit to me, I'll know. I'll know that they're a psycho killer.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Especially if they're based in a place where you are, like we're in Australia, for example, Wolf Creek.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

I'm like Wolf Creek.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

I never watched that just because, but benefit is not a backpacker, so maybe I'm safe. But anyway, we digress. We're talking about Clayface today, guys. And one of the things that we're going to be touching on is Matt Hagen as a character. We're going to look at his self-worth. We're also going to look at how Gotham was represented in this movie and the absence of Batman, how we feel about that. We're going to be talking a little bit about obsession, the ending of that movie in terms of Matt and Caitlin's relationship, and we'll talk a little bit about the production as well. So before the stinger old brash, Matt Hagen, is he a good guy? That's the question that we had on our lips. And I think for me, the actor that plays him, Tom Reese Harry's, he said that this is not an anti-hero movie. This is a villain movie. Like he is a villain the whole way through. But I think as we've discussed, you can argue to a point that he was quite a decent dude to start with, and then obviously something happens.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

I mean, he was a decent dude. He was also a celebrity. You know, sometimes being a celebrity, you get that sort of bit of an ego boost, and you can, you know, make some poor choices because of that.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Yes, as we saw him do in the club with Zardo's girl.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

But realistically, like, yes, it's never a cool thing to do, especially after you got told. But realistically, they're all adults.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Yes, correct.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Making their own choices, doing their own things. And you know, to have some a bunch of dudes in your place and cut your face off.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Yeah, I think that's an extreme consequence. Yeah, maybe an extreme consequence. Yeah. I've mentioned before in some of my other YouTube videos on Clayface that when that happened to him, obviously his career fell apart. It had a massive impact on his psychology. Voice acting out of the question, apparently, to continue his career in in that run. He he definitely just wanted to be a star and a leading man.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

I I don't I don't want to I don't I don't wanna make light of the situation. No, I don't yeah, all that, but when you said voice acting, kind of remembers you because he's when he because he got so cut, especially because he got actually used me out, cut and oh yeah, very true. I I just all I can think of is the first Ted movie when Tegus pulled all his stuff he pulled up and they pull stuff back inside him up and he makes that joke where he's uh acts like he's been uh default because of how they stuffed him back together.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

And he's like, uh, I I'm a little fucked up.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

And he's talking a bit faint. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

That's how I picture Matt trying to do voice acting after his incident with the knives.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Absolutely, absolutely.

Matt Hagen’s Self Worth Spiral

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Now, I think that as we talked about, he rises through the Hollywood stardom. He comes from the Gotham Narrows, so he's got a background where he's come from nothing. And then when you have a lot after coming from nothing, you're fiercely protective to keep it. And I think that that's kind of what drove him in his decision making to actually go forth and see this experimental treatment. But it gotten to the point where I think there was an issue for Matt Hagen before that uh Oscar nomination incident happened. And I think the issue was that he was always seeking other people's approval to value himself, and we saw that through his like his facial expressions as he was looking to get his Oscar nomination and it came through and how reveal relieved he was at that. But I think that that loss of his appearance was just the outward physical manifestation of him having a low self-worth in the first place. He's obviously very, very attractive and body is very nice as well, so he he values that.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Yeah, but he and comes out when he has takes the or make sends the message to his mother about um about getting nominated. He sort of drops the facade of what is, and like he's sort of tearing up and crying a little bit, and he's telling his mum that he's he's done it, he's finally he's been nominated, like it's it's finally happening, rah-rah. Just that sort of and especially since he grew up in the slums of Gotham. Yeah, like he he wouldn't have that much of a self-worth because realistically, you people in the Slums of Gotham always look down on and made to seem like they're just the trash of the city. Um, so he would have a low self-esteem and being able to call you call out of that and win Oscar, like you'd have to put on a facade to try and hide that the years and years of being always put down and stepped on.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Yeah, and I think that the there was a few deleted scenes that actually starred Aaron Paul as his father that showed that Matt Hagen actually went through a little bit of domestic violence, yeah, physical abuse from his father figure, who was mentioned by the Mushforces. Yeah. And then I think he actually had a like a one-second cameo when Flayface was changing his face in the club, and that guy was looking confused because he he recognized Matt's father. Yeah, that's exactly right. So I think a lot of his scenes were cut from that, but it with that background, you can sort of connect the dots to show why he was always seeking other people's approval and kind of his achievements were self-validating, obviously, but I don't think the approval from others for those achievements should determine his value. And I think his fierce pursuit of actually trying to get his looks back was governed a lot by that. So I think that that's why he was making a lot of desperate and drastic decisions in terms of

Domestic Abuse Hints And Deleted Scenes

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Caitlin. Now we mentioned Gotham's Narrows.

Gotham’s Look And Class Divide

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Let's jump into how Gotham looked in this first iteration in the DCU. This is the first time we're diving into Gotham City in a live-action movie that's connected canon to James Gunn's universe. Apparently, it was inspired by 1930s German Expressionist films and also gritty street photography from New York. And I definitely got that vibe because we had the neon, we had the trash, the dirty buildings. We saw that side of Gotham, but we didn't see the glitz and the glamour, the Wayne side of Gotham, the business side of Gotham. What were your thoughts of what we got in the Clayface movie brash?

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Yeah, it's understandable because everything pretty much did take place. It's sort of like um, because if you have you ever playing any of the Arkham games.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Love them, the there was, and this is where I think they took the where the premiere took place in Gotham. It was actually in sort of the not this I would say the slums area, but it was in like similar to the area where the Waynes were shot.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Which was which was in not the nicest neighborhood, it was sort of like borderlining on like the bad sort of bad middle side to the high side. Yep. So this all takes place sort of in the middle to lower.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

So in lower middle class areas, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Because here you see like the premiere and everything like that is all in the middle class area where he starts off and where the clubs are and everything like that, and then where his hotel and stuff is is sort of in the slums area.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yeah, and you get the kind of people through those areas that obviously are product of that environment in this movie, because we know that Matt Hagen rose from the narrows, but then he's associating with all of the glitz and glamour of Coast City, but also like the Gotham bigwigs as well, you could say, because of the the mob boss connections and being allowed to get into clubs, you know, just through who you are as a person. Like he's obviously gained that stature. But you can also see throughout some of the panning shots of the towering buildings, but there was always like it was almost like having a nice linen spread over a bed, but knowing that the mattress underneath it was just dirty and filthy as well, because that's how I felt when I saw this Gotham. It was like the buildings and the towering glitz and glamour were there, but there was still the neon streets, the dark lighting, the corruption that just felt oppressive all over the place. And they did a lot of shots through alleyways, which told me that Gotham was a little bit maze-like as well, like a dangerous sort of place. A good playground for Batman to reside, one might think.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Well, I can't remember when. I believe it might be one of the animated shows, animated series. Gotham's layout was on purpose to make it easier in the higher class to get around and harder to maneuver around in the lower class areas. Not sure why, but I I'm sure it was brought up in one of the animated shows.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Maybe it's to keep the the lower class citizens contained.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Yeah, everything's more everything's more clustered and closed in, more like as you said, more maze-like. And then as it gets to the nicer area, it's a bit more grid-like layered and more you know city-like.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Yeah. I personally think that Gotham is more interesting when we experience it through the ordinary people of Gotham and the the lower class citizens of Gotham, because I think Batman's villains or his rogues gallery is probably one of the drawing factors for that character. And we need a Gotham that matches. Like I this is probably my second favourite Gotham that I've seen on film. Second to the Batman with Robert Pattinson, that Gotham is it it is a character in itself. So I s I still think that they did a

Should Batman Be Mentioned

SPEAKER_00 10:45

really good job. But one thing that the internet has been asking, and people are divided on whether they wanted it or they didn't want it, but there was no reference to Batman, there was no reference to Wayne Tech, there was no reference to the company at all. So should we have had that in this movie?

SPEAKER_01 11:01

So that's what I've been I've been scouring the internet trying to find the actual timeline for the where it sits in the cabin, yeah. Yeah, the speculation, because I don't think it's been proven yet, it's meant to be between 2021 and 2022.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Yep. It's worth it.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

But that also doesn't make sense to me because James Carnes come out and said that Batman and Superman are of similar age. Yep. Which means by now, like they may say Batman's off still doing shit in to bestow everything goes.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

With the monks uh and training over there, but that doesn't make sense because he would already be in his because when Superman rocks up in 2025 or in the twinkle 2025, Superman's in his mid-30s. Yeah. Early 30s.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Canon-wise, that's 2022 in the DCU universe, but even so, that's give or take a few years. We know that Superman had a childhood on the fan farm beforehand. We don't know much about what Batman's done here, though he has been referenced in a couple of canon DCU projects, one being Creature Commandos. He was up on the rooftop with Dr. Phosphorus' flashbacks. It was just literally a lightning flash, blinking your miss at moment. Lanterns. Yep, lanterns, as you suggested there. Even in Superman, wasn't he? Didn't Greenland say something in Superman? I'm not too sure, but I th I know. Oh, actually, no, no, no, it wasn't. It was in Lanterns, yeah. Yeah. And the Suicide Squad movie written by James Gunn. It is said that Bloodsport had shot Superman with a kryptonite bullet, which we know hasn't happened yet, or have we haven't seen it happen. So I guess the timeline for that's a little bit murky as well.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Yeah, but but also Batman was in was literally in even though I don't think it's continuity or thing in the first Suicide Squad.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Yeah, yeah, no, I don't think that's uh canon at all. I I'm of two minds about it because I know James Gunn has said that the canon and the storytelling of the DCU is very fluid, and there's he's was recently on the DC official podcast saying that there are different separate universes in the DC canon. There's obviously the animated shows that they do, they've got the DCU that they do, they've got the previous DC EU from Zack Snyder and things like that. And I know we're so used to a connected universe, but I just feel like it's a little bit lazy to say, yeah, we can just tell whatever stories we like and it's not going to be connected, but they've also advertised and said that this DCU is connected and done little Easter eggs and connections here, there, and throughout. So I kind of want him to make a decision left or right about it. I really want him to either commit to the canon or say that all these are separate stories and that's how they should stay.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Especially if he's doing if he's doing the brave and like because the Batman movie is called The Brave and the Bald. Yeah, and it's supposed to have Damien Wayne. Yeah, if you watch, like if they're well, it depends on what they're doing. If they're copying, well not even copying, but like using sort of the Batman from the Brave and the Bold. The Brave and the Bold Batman is very, how I say, childish.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

He almost reminds me mostly of the Adam West Batman from the 40s.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

It's like it's that it's almost a little like like the stuff he does is a little like ridiculous in a way.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

There's Adam West and George Clooney, and this the Brave and the Bold look in the middle of that.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Like, like they like he comes up with like outrageous ways to save the day all the time and stuff in the Brave Wild, and everything's like even the way it's drawn is a little bit more lighter and a bit more probably child-friendly.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

I would have much preferred them basing it off the original Batman anime show. If they're gonna base a Batman off of any base any Batman.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

100%, but I think that's that's very much been done before. What are you not not really?

SPEAKER_01 14:26

I have yet to see a Batman I can say, yep, that reminds me of the anime series, but like the they got close probably with Zack Star's Batman. Yeah. Zach Star? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

I think he's the best looking Batman. Like Ben Affleck's Batman is the best looking Batman in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

I always

Timeline Confusion And DCU Canon

SPEAKER_01 14:43

like Batman to be uh I'm not thinking of Zach Night, I'm thinking of um Christopher Nolan. Christopher Nolan's Batman. Like Dark Knight. The Dark Knight series. I reckon is probably the closest they've gotten to like what the anime of Batman is. But again, and I actually saw this on uh another like they were doing some sort of r a review or they're talking about or something like that about their favorite um Batman's movies, like and why and why not. And they brought an interesting interesting point which I think I completely agree with, is whenever they do Batman, it's always a big celebrity who plays Batman. Oh yeah, I have and they always show James Gunn's traditions.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Oh, did he? Yeah, he said they always get a big celebrity to play Batman, but in his case, what he's doing is he is going to pick the best actor to play Bruce Wayne in the world.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Well, yeah, yes, go James. I've I'm all for that because like that's the thing. They they tend to then showcase and make a spectacle out of Bruce Wayne, which diminishes the whole thing of Batman. Yep. Like Batman's meant to be like this super secret squirrel, jump around in the darkness, everything's always shaded and cloaked, and he swoops in, saves the day, and gets the fuck out of Dodge.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Whereas like in in the like even in the first movie, he's like out in like what seems to be late afternoon and it's overcast, like floating around and shit. And it's like, dude, like during the day, like no, like always especially one. Well, exactly. And but the thing is, give me give me uh a couple of Batman movies where like he is purely just coming out at nighttime, like he usually does. He only comes out at night, and only sometimes, and if he does do things during the day, usually he's disguising himself in other ways.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Well, that's the thing that they've always said about Batman as well, is that the disguise is Bruce Wayne. Yeah, he is actually Batman as a person, and that's why I like Robert Pattinson's Batman because I feel like he exemplifies exactly what you're talking about. He's he's non-plussed about his reputation as Bruce Wayne. He doesn't want to go out and entertain that aspect of his life. He's committed to the Batman role, stays at nighttime, grungy, doesn't like to go out during the daytime because he's just so tired from nightlife, just getting the shit.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

That's something any circus is like his circus.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

His Alfred, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

A great Alfred. His take on it where he's like, Yeah, but maybe you should just go out every now and then as Bruce Wayne to just say, Hey, look, I'm Bruce Wayne, instead of just being like, huh, there's a dude in a bathsuit floating around on the side with all these high-tech gizmos and gadgets. Where's Bruce Wayne been lately? Yeah, he's the richest guy we know. Yeah, like it's sort of like it's like you need to have you need to put on that mast as Bruce Wayne every now and then to go out and like do things. But now we get another topic again.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Yeah, but actually let's let's bring it back. Let's bring it back back.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

Yeah, we'll bring it up, but I'll bring it back that because for the whole reason why I'm thinking of time frames right now is because if it's 2020 2021, 2022, supposedly clay face, realistically, Batman should already be around, even if it's in his sort of like year one sort of stage. Like, oh hell hell, actually, you probably should be way later because if they don't braid the bowl, he's if they don't braid the bowl, that means they're gonna have him established already.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Well, yeah, because that's supposed to also feature Damien Wayne, who is his son. Yeah. So I think he's got to be old enough to father a child and have a few years of Batman under his belt as well.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

That means he that means he's met Tali Aldul and Rachel Dool, and he's probably fought a whole bunch of other people for his gallery. Clayface being set then, Batman sh like would be involved in like because this isn't just uh over the span of like three nights, Clayface has gone through and wreaked havoc.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

No, it was over a few minutes, especially that end part as well, because they did a little bit of a time jump there where he's obviously been in hiding for a while.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

Yeah, and so this is spent over a long time. You got this obvious criminal who's floating around who's doing gang stuff that you know is bread and butter for Batman to stop.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Yeah, he he is masterful at hiding his appearance and things like that, though. So you gotta take it out of the way.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Oh, okay, radio. Yeah, like there's a mobster, there's a mobster who's slowly but surely he's taking the city. He went to trial to cut for cutting up the face of the dark guy. And then sitting on, hmm, maybe I should not investigate. I should have intended to leave it. Like, it's that's something that he'd be like, hmm, maybe I should intervene on this, because this dude seems like a bad egg.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Yeah. Well, the thing with that is I feel like they could have used like the Moronis or or some

Practical Effects Versus CGI

SPEAKER_00 19:10

other famous Gotham family in that space as well, because then that would establish a sort of canon that you're you're looking at there. Do you opinion? I would have liked them to use Sinonus. I don't know who that is.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

That's one another one of the common funies, his black mask.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Oh, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Because Sinonus, technically, his cosmetic company in the animated show is the company that created the clay that messed him up in the first place after his accident. They the clay that they use is from Sinus's forgot the name of the cosmetic company, but Sinus owns it. It was in lanterns when he walks through that mall when he falls through the hole into the mattresses. Was it Daggett's? Daggett, I think. Maybe, maybe Daggett?

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Daggett's from the animated series.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Yeah, I think it's Daggett. Um, but uh, it's it's on the it's on the window of uh the mall when he's walking through the mall when he goes to have his interview, when John goes to have his interview with uh the Guardian. But uh yeah, it's it's Sinus's company, or the Sinus-owned company that made the clay that turned clayface into clayface because to get more of the stuff they were using him, oh you see the animated Joe, they're using him to try and blackmail people and stuff like that by changing his appearance. And then they tried killing him and end up filling him up with too much stuff, and then he ends up turning to clayface. But so I would have liked them to use Sionus and have the company, like even though in this one, like it was Kay, what's it, Caitlyn? Yeah, Caitlin's the woman, they use her as the person who's credit lover, but she was let go by the company that was I would have liked them to say, Hey, yeah, that was Sinus's company. So I don't think they mentioned that what company she was a part of. So I would have liked them to say, Hey, it's the cosmetic company, what it is, that's owned by Sinus. That would be like, oh like you know, if you know you know, sort of thing. But she was Easter egg. Yeah, the Easter egg, but she was just let go, and she's the one who created the formula that turned him into clayface. But and I I was because that's one thing I sort of didn't like. I liked I liked how it was like uh like the bad guys who sort of created the goo that turned clayface into clayface. But in saying that, I also liked the change that they made where it wasn't because he was working well, it wasn't because he was working for a mob and then they tried to whack him and it didn't work and he turned into clayface is why he turned into a face. I do like, yeah, I do like it being more personal and and it was he

Nanites Fuel Obsession And Violence

SPEAKER_01 21:29

was just he was just trying to get back to how he was.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Yeah, and I actually feel like that's better for the the revenge plot as well, but also like the personal stakes in it as well, and it makes it more like a a crime of passion sort of thing as well, which drives Matt Hagen's character as well. But with the the Zabo connection as well, I actually thought for a moment that that they were renaming Victor Zaz. You are you familiar with Victor Zaz? Because he's a he's a villain. I don't know if he's a mob, but he's he's very adept with blades, you could say. Yeah. He's he I thought that was gonna be him, but then when he perished at the end of the movies.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Well yeah. I was gonna say yeah, because then they'd have to k they'd have to kill him off. Yeah. Unless they somehow m made him survive, they'd have to kill him off, which I think would be bad because Victor Zaz is he's never been like an overly important character. Like he's he's one of those ones whose whoos can be slotted in with different crawls.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

He's psychologically broken. So he's a bit dangerous and he's usually used as a whack man.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Like he was just going to be a little bit exactly like just a hard information out of the mercenary to kill people. And he does it because he's like every time until they do yeah every time he kills someone he scars himself as a marker and he's basically heads don't cover the scars.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Exactly yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

But yeah that that would have been interesting but I like I'm like that's probably why they went with the nameless mobsters because they knew that they had to kill and they didn't want to kill anyone named or overly overly well like but that's why I think they should done it as Sonos they didn't have to kill Black Mask but they could like the people who the people who were well see this is the thing he could still be Black Mask if he survived that he has a very horrible face to wear a mask over now. Oh because a Batman does that to him.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Oh well it's part of the backstory.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

But yeah having maybe the company that created the that dumped Caitlin be also the mobsters behind the behind cutting up his face it could have been like yes coincidental but it could have like tied everything in and he killed those mobsters thinking oh yeah it's just this pack of mobsters and they yes they're trying to maybe branch out that branch out on their own and do their own thing and create their own business and sort of pull away from Black Mast's sort of gang and have make their own gang and he goes around kills them all and then maybe then finds out that they were actually working for science industries or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Well I think I think there is still space for them to go Zabo was working for yeah well absolutely can but like it would have been probably like it would have been better or be it'll probably come across better if it had been done in

Caitlin’s Trauma And A Chilling End

SPEAKER_01 24:02

the actual show.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

At least it would have had that connection to something that and then that way if they like if Clayface and that does come back or anything like that or anything like that they could tie it in with Black Mask. And they seem to be like as I said like they show the cosmetic company of Black Mask in Lantern. So I know I have a feeling a black mask might be a thing. Like they had Blask in Birds of Prey who was played by Ewan McGregor.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

But yeah but that that's a yeah I don't know like the time frame for me does doesn't help at the moment like because you can't you can't make a prediction no and and like I would understand say say if this was like early 90s. That would make more sense to me early to even late nineties.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Well I feel like it's a long time before anything that we have established in canon because we obviously see clayface rock up in the creature commandos fully established in Louisiana hiding having taken the place of college professor. Yeah and obviously she he gets into an encounter there with Rick Flag senior but that is canon speaking Peter Saffron has said that is the same clayface that we've talked about here in in this movie as well so it gets a little bit more muddy in that space as well.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

That's in terms of that's why I feel this has to be in the 90s. Like they have to do this either late 90s or very early 2000s. Some somewhere in there because then that also means that while he was doing the clayface thing that could have been the period where either Bruce Wayne was still a teenager or he was heading to Tibet. Yep and he's off doing and he comes back I don't know maybe like a year or two after clayface in his early 20s gets established and now it's 2020 like 10 years like so yeah that's what oh

Ratings Plus More Villain Origin Films

SPEAKER_01 25:38

so maybe maybe then late two maybe late 2000s I'm trying to think what because where are we up now is what 2026 yeah well that's when man of tomorrow will occur. Yeah so 2025 was

Listener Question And Closing

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Man of Steel?

SPEAKER_00 25:51

We'll get more answers in Man of Tomorrow because Rick Flag senior's in there so that'll muddy the water like clear up the muddy waters with creature commandos.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Superman was 2022 canon 2022 canon yeah so and then super girl happened between that obviously and yeah so because I'm looking at sort of like a rough timeline here and it's got clay phase 2020 2021 to 2022 creature commandos 2024 superman 2025 Lance and Supergirl 2026 present day events unfold in DC.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

See I like that I can get behind that.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Yeah but the thing is clay phase still being 2021 2022 Batman should be established by then that's the thing that's the thing I I can't get behind.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

So would you have wanted to see a backlit shot of Batman lightning goes by in this movie?

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Like well realistically maybe because it stands alone without it how is Batman how it does but how is Batman not know like the thing is Batman is meant to be the protector of Gotham how is he not amongst this if he and the only way I could see him not being amongst it is he's not around yet. That's why like I would have rather I would have like they wouldn't have shown Batman but I wanted I was hoping and especially when they went to the GCPD I was hoping to see Gordon. That would have been good too I would I would have much preferred that and then they show Gordon and then they show what role Gordon was in. If he was still a beat cop or if he was a because he obviously isn't commissioner yet because he became he becomes I think he becomes commission like he should become commissioner after that. Yeah. So I I if I seen there and saw Gordon he was still a beat cop I would have been like yep sweet this is before that.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Yeah. Well I I would suggest that Batman would be active in Gotham but then that does beg the question that you've been talking about why didn't he stop Clayface if all these mobsters are dying and then I guess you can suspend your disbelief and say there's so much crime in Gotham City that Batman was dealing with crime in the east while Clayface was doing his shit in the west. So it's it's obviously a bit of a grey area a gap in silence as we call it in the department but I probably don't need a Batman in this movie. I think it establishes Matt Hagan's origin very very well I think the tie would have been nice.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Yeah I I so looking at looking at time frame I would I would be okay if they said that this was in 2011 2012 uh twelve so earlier than it is 10 years prior and then that gives him 10 years to solidify himself as Batman have a baby well yeah no have to if David Wayne's in it he has to have a baby who has grown up into at least to be at least 10 years 12 years old yeah 12 years old so if they had to done this and say if we're not gonna see Batman until say 2026 and it's gonna be 2026 or 2027 the year when Brave the Bowls canonically takes place then I would say 2000 2012 2013 would roughly be okay because that gives him if you Batman then Damien Wayne is conceived and then that gives like another 13 years to what deck present deck.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

So that is that is also considering if all these stories do still take place because we know yeah and that's the other thing like as I said like for me Brave and the Bold is probably not the choice I would go with for DCU type Batman. Yeah I reckon Batman should be more of the like Robert Patterson Batman.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

I would much prefer that you want him dark and broody first. I would too because then he would juxtapose well with the Superman that we got because it's all about hope um bright colours shining in the sun you got the Boy Scout baby blue Superman and then the broody sort of not much to say Batman. Yeah and then the journey for them would be coming together and finding the middle ground for both. Yeah. Batman needs to be a bit brighter and Superman needs to be say a little bit less optimistic sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

There's uh one of one of the animated episodes of uh I don't know it might be in Justice League or it might be in one of the Batman shows maybe or Superman shows but there's an animated show clip I saw where Batman and Superman are going up and they're like they're talking about the other and how closed off they are and how hard is to talk to them and stuff like that. But they're like the best person they've ever known every night and they come out of the elevator at the same time and like the way Batman and like Superman and Lois just walking along going up the elevator where Batman and Catwoman are like jumping buildings and stuff and sneaking around climbing through vents and climbing up um vents and then they come out of the elevator like two separate LAs at the same time and meet up with each other.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Yeah they're the opposite side of the same coin which is the best part about them. But let's talk about the thing that makes clayface clayface at the moment which is the fact that it was definitely a body horror picture. The prosthetics were used pretty well throughout this movie. The CGI was a little bit lacking at times but I don't think it takes away from the story at all. I like the fact that they use the practical effects throughout this movie crash I think it made it look more grounded and obviously more visceral which is what you want from a well apparently what you want from a body horror movie me not having seen many of them but liking this one. Yeah apparently there was 19 designs or 19 different iterations of what Clayface looks like through the movie so the the actor Tom Rees Harris would have had to put on quite a number of prosthetics and the team would have done an amazing job to get all that done as well. So yeah it was it's impressive very impressive and I I I'm with you with the animation like sometimes the animation of like when you actually get to see him sort of change him more like it does look cool but there are times where I was like that's very heavily CGI'd yeah exactly like when his eyes begin to to close shut on the airplane which apparently was a shot which took place on like a gimbal dolly and there was practical prosthetics used and he had five different pairs of scissors that he was trying and it was yeah it was a very horrifying experience in real life to try and get done. So yeah he had the practical prosthetics but then obviously it was also CGI'd in initially when he does the blink because yeah you can definitely tell the difference because it looks like putty's been smeared across one eye when it's the the prosthetic but the the one that got me yeah you go first.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

So I I did I did though in fact like the look of because we never get the seam fully formed but the fully formed clay face at the very end.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

At the very end and then when he also gets electrocuted at the I liked that because it I feel like it was the perfect mix between live action and the animated series throwback because you could see he had the warped mouth the teeth were jutting out everywhere his brown mass was there that you could see looking like mud and he was he was still tragically sad which carried along the the canon for the movie prior and you saw that single Matt Hagen eye looking out in the sun just sort of still crying you're like oh there's still a guy under there I've I still and it almost full circles you because you end up starting feeling sorry for him and then you go oh no you've gone a bit too far with the way that you're pursuing this and you're starting to get obsessed and creepy and then by the end of it when he's that big monster you're like oh I'm feeling a bit sorry for him again.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Oh well I I still am because it's almost so it's like it's a it's a it's the thing is this is this is I'm of two minds. Like you are the one is in charge of your actions. I I get that people have cognitive and like have issues that don't always put them in the best mindset or in control of what their actions are per se. And that's sort of like how I got the feeling towards the end especially when when he gets shunted out the window and he's to start to turn into the big clay face and the last part of his humanity he's like saying to her do it like as an I kill him. Yeah and she like hits the kill switch but and that's sort of like him like his real self coming through and acknowledging all the bad she's done and saying I am a monster no I can't control this. You're gonna have to you have to stop.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Yeah. And I think as well about the nanites was it the nanites sort of that were is was inside the prosthetic skins that took over his body that was self-healing were they playing a part in the psychological thing because they well they say they amplify what they think he needs. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

So they're injected to like to heal things that that they think he need healing. So for him though they started because he had so many of them in him I think they and because AI they sort of like learned and they're like we need to do whatever you need to do to make him the best that he thinks he needs to be so that's by getting back making him healed again so he can do his acting that's by getting rid of all the his threats around him. Yeah getting the girl getting the love of his life emotion exactly emotional responses. So he loves a girl they he has to get the girl the girl has a girl every king at eleven the girl has a partner he's on obstacle he's being moved out of the way yeah I I I feel like they they didn't help him they didn't help him and definitely didn't I think because of the fact that the real Matt Hagen is buried so deep with himself already because he's playing the character of this big movie star when that's probably not how he actually feels inside. Yeah or he's overplaying it or he's just yeah wearing it as like a mask his Matt Hagen superstar as a mask for his insecure owns insecurities and hardships that he had growing up this is just like another sort of shell on top of that again trying to end up not knowing who he actually really is. Yeah and it jumbles with him and he turns him into a monster when realistically deep down he didn't want really any of this shit. He just wanted to he just wanted to get out of the slums and do something with his life and make his mum proud.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Yeah and perform doing something that he loved to do obviously but I think you're right in terms of the the high level emotional responses to things because he even succumbs to a high level of like jealousy being taken over to the point where he ended up killing Corey his best mate which was kind of the point for me. I was like okay this guy's going too far. Yeah because yeah Corey wronged him but not in the same kind of way as the mobsters did and like that scene as well was all practically done where he pulled Corey into his body there was apparently a physical chest rig that they used which was really like amazing to to watch and see. Yeah but that's the point for me where I was like okay this might be getting to the point where where Matt Hagen is a little bit irredeemable and he's starting to slide into that super villain territory. But the biggest reveal that came for me or the best part was when you know there's that scene in all the crime psychological thrillers where the the the main character starts to work out that the person they know is actually a killer and and Caitlin sees the the files and it says time of death was this last appearance was this that was where I was like oh this is getting a bit spicy she started she's starting to figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Yeah it's hard to piece it together.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Yeah exactly where were you between these hours? Exactly but I think that that's the thing that Matt really had to succumb to there was the fact that he's he made a desperate choice to inject himself with those nanites which then ended up having him have unknown consequences and circumstances. But let's talk about Caitlin for a bit just before we close out because that last scene was really eye-opening for me in terms of all the things that she went through when she's walking through the streets of Gotham and everybody's like giving her a look here and there and then I'm thinking in my head holy crap she is never going to feel safe ever again because she knows exactly what um Matt Hagen has gone through. Yeah what he can do and how he could be anybody and yeah that was a really great way to sort of close it out and just add that level of psychological fear of the impact that Caitlin had or has had because of Matt and his actions. I thought that was really good.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

Yeah that actually probably actually that NC2 might have been a good way not to introduce certain Batman per se but maybe even just Bruce Wayne like have like have her looking around all these people like being like sus about everyone and then having like say some rich pompous guy maybe standing near a fucking Royals Rolls Royce car driven by an old butler man. With a pencil mustache with a pencil mustache and just maybe you stand there maybe just having a quick glance over at her and then because maybe now Batman is trying to find Clayface. Yeah he's following the leads following he may know that he may think that he may know that clayface is still actually around and like so you don't actually see Batman but you see you know maybe some some rich person standing by a car just in the middle of like the slummy area.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

Yeah. Very very cool.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

All right we're gonna wait this movie they wanted to put Batman into it but I'm actually I I'm glad that they sort of I'm glad that they didn't but I do wish they I I do hope that they say come out and say yep this movie is done 10 years or 15 years before Batman's a thing.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

That way when Braithor comes out the fact he has a child makes it yeah well it might even be a single line when Clayface returns on our screens he might say I've been hiding for 10 years or something like that and then you can do the math backwards track it. But yeah we're gonna rate this movie now for me personally I'm probably we're gonna rate it out of 10 I'm personally probably going to give this a 7.13 for me it was definitely a solid seven the point one three comes from the fact that I would like just a smidgen of Batman like you said that you would prefer without I just wanted like a big W on a building or something. Just something like that. It's a little nitpick but for a horror movie that I don't really indulge in often I was very well satisfied by the cinema experience. What about you Brash what are you giving this?

SPEAKER_01 38:52

I reckon 8.2 8.2 the point two I think is the small the change that they made in having him just being attacked by mobsters and his face get cut up as being the accident whereas I believe in the anime it was a car crash or some shit that fucked him up. Yeah and then he started to get involved to involved with the criminal guys that gave him the clay. I prefer this way it did make it more personal it seemed and it made it more like you can sort of you feel for him for that bit and yeah and you feel like oh yes and I think that's the way that that that's the reason that's my reason for the point too I don't I was like it's a very solid movie. I'm glad that they didn't have any Batman references in it or anything like that. I do hope that they it probably would I probably would have made it a little bit higher if they did solidify the date or maybe at some point might go back to the movie and rewatch it and see if there's any papers or anything.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

That's a good idea. And go through to see if there's any papers and see if I can see a date on any of the papers maybe well there is this paper at the end when Caitlin in quotes buys one and then brings him the reviews so maybe we'll have to pause zoom in on the date because I would like to get a confirmation on a specific date.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Yeah um and I would I would like it to be back in the past to make things make sense. Yeah. Um but uh uh speaking on that there's one other thing I wanted to bring up that was really important now I just forgot it was super important. It was and I was about to say it and then I backtracked to about my point two of why it was my point two. Oh the clayface movie in general I want them to do more like especially if they especially villain wise and they don't have to be the big villains but I would really like to see more clayface like movies.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Like a rogues gallery sort of thing. Like Sony did but way better.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

Yeah yeah exactly with Spidey Village but they're in separate they're in separate movies it within the universe in separate times maybe sometimes like sometimes have Batman in it sometimes not but like uh like the movies like with like like baby doll like in the anime that like her backstory like in the animated series baby doll one oh heartbreaking absolutely heartbreaking the ace the ace gang where you got jack king queen and ace the spades where Ace is a little girl who was has psychic abilities and was tortured and turned into a weapon and stuff like that and ends up like just dying because of all the side effects and shit of all the shit they did to her but Batman just goes into this world like she's like Wanda where she created a whole big world and uh Walla was gonna kill like just kill her I kill her and Batman's like nah I'll do it and grabs the tank of shit that will kill her walks in there and just sits with her on a swing and talks to her and just talks to her and then she's like I'm dying aren't I like yes and she's like will you stay with me he just halted his hand and holds her hand while she sits there and eventually dies and everything she created goes away and he walks out carrying her. Like that kind of shit that kind of like I would I would fucking definitely pay to see that kind of movie. Yeah like and I think that's the thing especially with Batman villains they always tend to have some sort of like they would just average not most most of the time they'll just average like not all of them obviously but some of them just average people a shit happened to them.

SPEAKER_00 42:02

Yeah it was like people were saying when we walked out of the cinema it's like they're a villain but they've just had one bad day. What bad day like yeah the jokers joker just one bad day. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

And and yeah like I I would really I like see but not even just Batman villains like other villains like go back and have a look at some of the other villains that have had similar story backstories where there were just regular people and then just one bad day or one bad thing and it turns and flips and they become a villain that's now synonymous with villainy.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Villainy yeah well according to this slate chapter one of DC Studios run of movies is called Gods and Monsters and James Gunn is apparently producing a swamp thing movie which is also being directed and written by James Mangold it seems so James Mangold was the same guy behind Logan and he also did one of your favorite movies Brash the latest Indiana Jones movie so it could be good or it could be bad. We don't know but with that in saying that we want to thank you guys for joining us on our episode on Clayface guys it has been an absolute blast to watch this movie to dive into horror it's been a longtime goal of mine to to do more horror movies. So we thank you for that we have a whole lot more clayface stuff on our channel we've got an origins episode and we've also got one analyzing his psychology so if you want to check them out they'll be in the show notes below and also I've got a question for you guys to leave in the comments was Matt Hagen destined to become a monster because of his psychology or could someone else have saved him or could he have saved himself? Mention in the comments below what you guys think. This is Aaron keep learning keep growing keep loving phantoms I was having a good day Aaron I was having a good day and then you brought up in the Angeles sorry dude one bad day it's all right guys I'll talk him off the edge and we'll see you through the next portal. See ya bye