Lessons from The Amazing Spider-Man 2

Hope Question And Show Intro

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Is hope about saving everyone or just showing up anyway? We explore this through the amazing Spider-Man 2, and we also discuss why Andrew Garfield is the best Spider-Man whose story never got its ending. Welcome to the Phantom Portals Podcast, the podcast that proves that your favorite film has something to teach you. If you are a fan of the films and you want more from your movies and you're in the right place, I'm your host Aaron. I'm a teacher and a film fan. And today I am joined by Mr. Adam Brasher. How are you today, Adam? Oh, I'm a bad self. Pretty good, man. Felt weird to call you Adam just then. His name's Brasher, everybody. Yeah, we call him Brash. Yeah, but in this episode, as we discussed, we are coming at you with some more Spider-Man content. This is coming as part of our deep dive on the character, on the friendly neighborhood Spider-Man. And we have more episodes out on YouTube regarding this, and they'll be in the show notes below, including five of Spider-Man's biggest teachers. And we also have one out about the scene that redeemed Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man as well. So if you're interested in seeing some of our video content, make sure you check out the links below. And if you're listening to this on podcast, they'll be there for you in the feed, also. So in this episode, we are going to talk about lots of different things, basically. Our most valuable takeaway, including the spreading of hope. We're going to be talking about some of the characters in The Amazing Spider-Man 2 and how they could or should have been done more justice. And we're going to be talking about a couple of scenes as well, including the famous clock tower scene. And we will probably also have a debate about Spider-Man and which one's the best. You've probably already heard my preference. But uh before we get into any of that, Brash is going to drop us a 30-second synopsis. Go for it, my man.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

The Amazing Spider-Man 2 continues with Peter Parker's journey as he tries to balance everyday life, love, and being the friendly neighborhood Spider-Man. Peter is busy protecting New York City while also fighting figuring out where things stand with Gwen Stacy. Even though he worries about keeping her safe, the two can't stay apart for long and reconnect as they plan for their future after graduation. At the same time, Peter's old friend Harry Osborne returns to take over Oscorp, but he's dealing with a serious illness and hopes Spider-Man might be able to help him. Meanwhile, a shy electrical engineer named Max Dylan has an accident at Optcorp and transforms him into the powerful Electro, creating chaos across the city. Spider-Man steps into stop Electro and keep everyone safe, showing once again why New York looks up to him. But things become more complicated when Harry makes a risky choice that turn uh that turns him into the green goblin, leading to a dramatic showdown that changes Peter's life. After facing loss and doubt, Peter remembers what being Spider-Man truly means. Inspired by hope and by Gwen's belief in him, he returns to protect the city once more, swinging back into action as its hero.

Why The Sequel Feels Overstuffed

SPEAKER_03 3:04

A lot going on there, Brash. A lot going on in this one. Yeah. Some would say too much. Yeah, some would say that. Actually, speaking of some might say, we put a lot of posts up on our threads on this one, and that was actually what most people said about it. We're gonna be using a couple of our threaders and community members in this episode as well, just to show you what they have said and just to include the community in the episode. If you wanted to be a part of that, make sure you follow our socials. They're on the screen right now if you're watching on YouTube, but if not, they'll be in the show notes. We are at Aaron underscore fandom portals everywhere. So go and check them out. But let's talk about that overcrowded roster of things going on there. So the production reality for this movie, it obviously came out in 2014, straight after the Avengers in 2012, when they basically revolutionized superhero cinema, leading up to a connected universe, which culminated in a billion-dollar movie, which was The Avengers. And Sony said to themselves, watch us do that. And they basically already had the Amazing Spider-Man 1 out, which was the reboot to Toby Maguire's Spider-Man, starring Andrew Garfield. And their plans, Brash, their plans was to eventually get to a Sinister Six film and to have a Venom spin-off. Now, one of those became a reality, and the other one died quite promptly. And the one that became a reality, some might say also probably should not have become a reality, but here we are. They were going to plan on making Oscorp the central villain hub of this space, which meant which meant that the Amazing Spider-Man 2 actually had to do a lot in its small runtime, which kind of sucked because it took away from what a lot of sequels can do, especially when you're doing it in a in a trilogy sort of sequence. So it had to introduce Harry Osborne, it had to establish Norman Osborne, it had to tease multiple villains, and it had to set up future films, which is just a recipe for disaster when you're already trying to tease out a relationship between Peter and Gwen, which was the central sort of motif of the movie, but then also looking at subplots to do with Peter's parents and his relationship to Oscorp, and it was just a lot going on, Brash. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Yeah, so I 100% think that they did The Amazing Spider-Man and then had no or had probably had something they wanted to do for Amazing Spider-Man 2. But then I think after the release of The Avengers and how they're like, oh look at how they put all these people in one movie and it was amazing, and were like, you know what, we're gonna change it up and we're gonna try and do the whole sinister six four hours. But because they already had the Amazing Spider-Man one out, they couldn't, especially because generally you always look at three movies first. Like you can try and go for a 10 or 9 movie run, a 12 movie run, but you always look at your first three. But because I already had that first one gone, I pretty much had two left to try and sort something out with. And unfortunately, with their I I think they needed three full movies. If you will. Come with me. Come with me on a journey as we as we explore as explore the amazing Spider-Man universe and repair the damages.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

So in Spider-Man 1, Spider-Man 1, they should they could have still still kept the lizard as the main villain, Dr.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Connors, but that would also like that also introduces Oscorpia to it. They should have the climax with the lizard maybe 20 minutes before the end of the movie, had that all complete and wrapped up, Spider-Man being like, hey, save the day. Unfortunately, Connors is injured and in waiting. Because Connors gets just gets arrested, doesn't he? He doesn't yeah, he does. Because he gets straightforward back into his human self. And but it's going to Stacy's father dies well. So while dealing with that aftermath, that's when they should have had Harry and Norman come back into it. And what they ha did on the second one with Harry and Norman coming back into it, they should have had Harry come back in, help console sort of Peter as he's like sort of probably still a bit depressed about the fact that Gwen Stacy's father had to die for him to save the city, blah blah. And sort of that's how he comes back in as a friend, while then also seeing Norman and look, I don't mind them killing off Norman straight away, or having him at their store straight away and not having him as the Green Goblin like the original.

SPEAKER_03 7:38

That's one of the things I don't like. I think they should have yeah, I should have I think they should have lent in leaned into Norman a little bit more and given him a bit a little bit more time before Harry sort of took over in that space. Yeah, I think that his trend like he was very much a looming villain in the amazing Spider-Man one, being just on the screen occasionally in the Oscorp background. But I think he again, I agree with you, he should have been more present in that movie. And then in number two, I feel like he should have been a little bit more villainous, present, maybe somebody who's already antagonized Peter Parker's Spider-Man. So then when Harry comes in, we have some threaders as well talk about this that said basically the best thing they could have done was to make Harry genuinely like good from the from the beginning. Here it is, here it says, It was me, Barry stated that they should have taken their time with Harry's transformation, make him undeniably good from the beginning, then slowly mold him into the goblin in the amazing Spider-Man 3, which I think would have been perfect. Speaking of that small that that growth into the Amazing Spider-Man 3, that's literally how they kind of did it in the first Spider-Man trilogy, in Raimi's trilogy. They made Harry Osborne the villain of the third one, but they really just overcrowded that third movie again. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

And that it that could have been a slow burn, and the whole second movie, Harry could have been this great guy, Electro could have been the main bad guy still, and he could have been main central focus with Harry being good, trying to maybe like maybe like being a little like really selfless, like as in like he is like succumbing to this disease, seemingly a lot quicker than like because you know his dad's like, oh, it's about your age when this happens, don't happen to me. But you see him in like all the videos with Peter's dad and shit, and like, yeah, he's got like a crisis, but he doesn't seem like like physically deformed yet. So I'm like okay, might be the I think they're rushing the rushing the changes a bit quick.

SPEAKER_03 9:34

That's exactly what happened because they they actually suffered from multiple riders in the development phase because there was James Vanderbilt, Alex Kurtzman, or and Roberto Arici, and their early versions really wanted to emphasize the strong relationship between Peter and Gwen, which Mark Webb was a big fan of as well, being basically a director who does a lot of like relationship movies. He was he did 500 Days of Summer as well. And he also wanted to emphasize the the Peter and Harry relationship. And you know, for the short time that they were on screen, I feel like they did develop that relationship, but I feel like I I do agree. I wanted more from their relationship to see how friendly they actually were, and then a gradual release of that illness and transformation is exactly what the original writers wanted to do. However, as with most movies, they get studio pressure, and from that they needed to accelerate the Sinister Six storyline and therefore accelerate the Green Goblin storyline, which made the ending really condensed. Because if you think about it, we get three villains in the last 20 minutes of the movie. They overcome Electro, they beat Gob well the Goblins there, and then at the end there's Rhino, so there's three in the space of 20-15 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

So I reckon they should have slotted in that Sinister Six movie that sort of introduced the rest of the Sinister Six characters and their goal of helping Harry find a cure and stuff like that, and you know, and they also like starting like their cabal. And so, like and so they got the backing of Oscorp to do their nefarious things and sort of like did it sort of did it like um the penguin TV show, where where like maybe like it's the rhino lost some of his turf because he got pinched by Peter earlier in the in the second early in the second movie. He has to go back and maybe he has to take on tombstone to get his to get his part of New York back. And they could have done something like that, and he could have had the help of the Sinister Six, and could have been the same with the other guys, and then they could have busted out like the rest of the Zen 66 could have busted out Electro if Electro was the one who got caught.

SPEAKER_03 11:39

Yeah, I feel like he like he got disintegrated into the grid, but it that's an easy rewrite to get him back. Hey, I reckon I reckon like he's in there somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Or maybe Vulture did get caught. And 100%. I think one of them's got to get caught, and then and then they free them, and then that's part of the movie, too, the part of the movie. So you see the rest of Cine 6 free the sixth member, and then Harry sends them off to like the whole Asidious in the background, taking his chair and saying, Go to this place and find this thing for me.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

Yeah. And they kind of they kind of did that with the the gentleman at the end walking through and getting the like the pieces of the Sinister Six together, and then that throwaway line that he says when he's actually looking normal again, when they say, Oh, it's come it comes and goes. I was like, Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Yeah. But yeah, uh, but yeah, and then in the third movie, the third movie could have been Spider-Man fighting off the Sinister Six, and then here he comes, and then depending on how they wanted to play it, if they wanted to go, he turns into full Beast Goblin mode, or if they wanted to, like maybe they got enough information to find some sort of cure.

Why Peter And Gwen Works

SPEAKER_03 12:50

Mark Webb's obviously a director who likes to create his relationship dynamics, which is I think one of my favorite parts of this movie, especially when you're talking about Peter and Gwen, like their emotional chemistry as characters, not to mention the fact that they, Andrew and Emma Stone, were dating in real life, so the chemistry felt authentic. But I think that's the thing that ties both of these movies together for me. And obviously, there is a lot of debate on how these movies come about, but I feel like this has the best Peter Parker to female love interest relationship out of all the Spider-Man movies, including Tom Holland and Zande's one. I believe that Andrew Garfield and Emma Stone just electrify the screen when they're on it, because you know, there's just so many good authentic moments that you can look at in these movies and see that they're they're really sort of acting the heck out of it for one. But it shows Peter going through some real emotional stuff, which I think is what Stan Lee tried to do when he invented the character, because he he talked about this being one of the first characters he invented that was somebody who had everyday problems, and he wanted this character of a Spider-Man to be somebody who was an everyday man who didn't always get things working out 100% of the time, and also wanted them to be wearing like a full-body costume because it was more like the symbol of Spider-Man could be anybody, whether they're whatever race or class or whatever they were. So one of Emma Stone's lines in this movie that I really like was how she she talks about Peter's guilt outside of the restaurant and says, you know, my father promised, or you promised my father that you can't see me anymore, but like what way is that to live? And that's one of the things that she like you're withholding your own happiness and like it's her choice as well. So I think she's a really lived-in character, whereas all of the other female characters from The Amazing Spider-Man, like Mary Jane from the original, she's very much a damsel in distress sort of type. And I think Zendaya's MJ walks that line a little bit less, but in essence, she still sort of does get damseled a little bit, whereas Emma Stone's Gwen Stacy was always an active participant in any of the conflicts, which eventually led to her demise as well. But she was also Peter's emotional grounding tool, which I liked because he had gone through a lot, obviously, and she had as well, and he was a very emotionally driven Spider-Man. And a lot of people have said that including the parents subplot detracts from anything to do with the Spider-Man movies. Like he doesn't spend very much time in the Spider-Man suit, for example. But I was interested in the fact that these movies explored that dynamic of Peter Parker because Mark Webb even said he said everybody's taken a lot of time to explore Spider-Man's origin story. That's been done in almost every movie, but I don't think anybody's actually taken the time to explore Peter Parker's origin story. And I always wondered about his parents, and in the comic books, they were spies as well, or they were supposed spies that died in a plane crash, which is emulated in this movie too. But I think for any teenage boy who is living with his uncle and aunt, he's gonna wonder about his parents. And I feel like his drive to solve that mystery also connects him to Oscorp, which then allows the writers to have this motivation for him to then go in and investigate Oscorp further because of the dramas that have been happening there and the villains that seem to be popping off from that company. But yeah, I just feel like this Spider-Man in Andrew Garfield and through Emma Stone as well is the best in terms of the emotional representation of the character of Spider-Man. Which sort of talks talking about our most valuable takeaway from this, to me, it's all about hope and it's all about spreading that hope because the film beautifully sort of bookends, and by bookends I mean at the start and at the end of the movie, Gwen's graduation speech, where she sort of talks about those those key lines where she says, We have to be greater than the things that we suffer, and even if we fail, what better way is there to live than being the hope for somebody else or living in a space where you can you can be that hope? Because again, a lot of people complain about the rhino scene and how much he was developed, and Paul Giamatti playing him like a lunatic. But I feel like that those scenes served two purposes. One was the fact that the rhino was supposed to represent the fact that Peter Parker had been working in New York this whole time, facing villains like that all the time, strengthening the the world building, you could say. But then also the rhino at the end obviously stood up against that small boy, and the small boy was somebody who Peter had instilled hope in in one of his smallest acts as Spider-Man. So it's that that ripple effect of hope within the community and what Spider-Man represents. And I feel like that's kind of the grounding force for me of this movie as to why I liked it so much. And I think it that that's not very m in very many other Spider-Man movies, as that friendly neighborhood sort of version of Spider-Man. Do you remember the the montage that they go through in the middle there? And then like throughout part of that, he's kind of sick and he's like trying to stop the robber in the in the shop, and he's like, like, through rain, hail, or shine, he's there being Spider-Man. And that's that, you know, he he tries his best despite the fact that bad things happen to him, and then in the end, obviously the worst thing possible could happen to him, and then he continues to to put the suit on because he knows what it represents is worth more than any personal sort of dilemma he's going through. But like instilling that hope is what Gwen would have wanted him to do, but then also what he felt was right, so it came to that sort of double conclusion there.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

I reckon Andrew Garfield was is the best Spider-Man. And I think he portrayed the best. The only reason why I I I didn't even tip Tom Holland up a lot is because Tom Holland's got the I don't want to be mean or anything, but he's got the stature for how they how they started, like they're all different. So for the MCU, Tom Holland's perfect for the MCU because Tom Holland, like the Spider-Man they brought in for the War Civil, and that he was a teenager, he was meant to be in high school, even though Tom is what 20 something he still sort of looked like that kid and he looked like the kid amongst all the heroes, yeah, which I think it was the perfect look for the Spider-Man that they were going for. Whereas I think Andrew is the perfect, so like the Spider-Man games, like Spider-Man 1, Spider-Man and Miles Boralis and Spider-Man 2. Andrew Garfield, I think, is the perfect version of that Spider-Man. The Spider-Man who's already out of school, who's already been through college, or is probably at the end of his college, and is now just pretty much full-time when he's not working Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

I I think a lot of people have the argument of like Toby McGuire is the best Peter Parker, Andrew Garfield is the best Spider-Man under the mask, and Tom Holland is the best combination of both. But I absolutely disagree with that. I think that Andrew Garfield is the best representation of Peter Parker and Spider-Man put together because Stanley always represented this character as being someone who was going through everyday problems, and everybody says that Andrew Garfield is too cool to play Spider-Man in this these movies. Like he's too handsome and he's too cool and he's too well equipped with the ladies in terms of his charisma.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Well, we're in the where wherever in the and anywhere in the comics did Emma say that Peter Parker was an average-looking, ugly, fat, slob dude. The best thing about Toby Maguire's Peter Parker was that he he actually represented Peter Parker's poverty. The best. He had the rundown apartment, his glasses had the tape on them holding them together because he couldn't afford to buy new glasses. He didn't have any sort of fancy tech or equipment or anything like that.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

Which is my biggest probe with Tom Holland.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

They yeah, like and they sort of like they show like um Andrew Garfield in the shed working on his own shit as well.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

I say though, about Andrew Garfield, he is the only Spider-Man to work on his own gadgets like that, which is what Spider-Man did. He built his own web shooters. Everything that Tom Holland got, he was given to by Tony Stark or Stark Industries, even if he manipulated the pieces and put them all together, like yes, okay. But he did not invent anything like that. Andrew Garfield Spider-Man did. Peter Parker's never did either. Like he's the inventive Spider-Man was Andrew Garfield. I feel like in that way, he was more like Peter Parker. And yeah, he I feel like he was more of like the outcasted 2000s teenager as opposed to like the 70s and 80s or the like the science nerd or the outcast in that way. Which again, in terms of Tom Holland, he never really like represented that sort of element of Peter Parker's journey.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

But like, see, but the thing is like Andrew Garfield, like in in Andrew Garfield Peter Parker, like he never seemed like he was like struggling like Peter usually is in like the comic none of the comics and stuff like that, or in like the Sam Raimi Spider Man. Yeah. That had like the tape holding the backpack together as well. And like every like he was just he was just basically using whatever he had. Like and the only time he ever ever went splurging on money is when he went into bad Spider-Man. Yeah. Like all he went in and the shop he went into, everything was on sale because it had sale written all over the doors and shit. So even when even when he went bad and he was gonna like get war, like got a suit and everything, it was a suit that was on sale. Because he had no money.

SPEAKER_03 22:29

Do you think that Spider-Man or Peter Parker, do you think he needs to go through poverty in order to do you think that's like an essential part of his character that he needs to go to?

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Well, I wouldn't say essential, but it it sort of it makes like it makes him more relatable to normal people. So like the Tom Holland swoman's less relatable because he got all his shit handed to him like like Yeah, a scholarship from Stark Industries.

SPEAKER_03 22:49

He's also living in an apartment in New York with an aunt who does whatever she does. Yeah. We don't know what Marissa Tomey does as a job, but they're able to afford it. And they're able to afford Charlie Cox, aka Matt Murdoch as a lawyer when he gets into trouble in nowhere home as well.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

So But I I think Andrew Garfield's pretty much close that to see with his camera in life. But he's got the flash laptop as well. And like in the in the movie, it says how his aunt is working two jobs just to fucking make ends meet and to help put him through college. He shouldn't have like overly flashed. Like his laptop should be a run-down second-hand laptop with a bunch of stickers all over it. Like just but like you see, like he's like opens his laptops, it's just flashed looking laptop, and it's like, dude, man.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

I think that Andrew Garfield is the most like the everyday kind of Spider-Man. But to I'm gonna say this and it's probably gonna ruffle some feathers, but I think I actually think Tom Holland is the worst Spider-Man representation, and I'm probably leaning more towards Toby being second in my book because of nostalgia purposes. When you're looking at Tom Holland's Spider-Man, all he is is just a copy of Morty from Rick and Morty, and Rick is Tony Stark, like he gets all the tools from from which which I think is why they're doing like sort of the reason, which is like the reason why they're doing the reset with Spider-Man. Well, 100%. And that, you know, when they call it brand new day and they're looking at everybody saying that we want to see Spider-Man in poverty and and looking at Spider-Man being all on his own and being dejected, and yeah, that's that's really awesome that we're returning to those roots. But I I feel like Andrew Garfield wasn't in poverty in that way, but I feel like his Spider-Man was alone the most because he never had any friends in high school that you could see, whereas Toby Maguire always had Harry Osborne with James Franco, and then Tom Holland always had Ned and MJ. Andrew Garfield was alone. So they're gonna go back to that in brand new day and say that this is brand new Tom Holland Spider-Man being all alone. It was done by Andrew Garfield. Every single friend that he had and every single mentor that Andrew Garfield had left or died. So if you want to talk about the depressed Spider-Man that Tom Holland's gonna be, his people are still alive. Yeah, they don't remember who he is, but he can still see them living and thriving, which is a different kind of pain than actually having them not be there anymore. So if you want to talk about depressed Spider-Man, Andrew Garfield has already done it better as well. So I think anything that they're gonna do in this brand new day movie is gonna be a repeat or a rehash or a rethread of the things that have that kind of made Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man to me successful. And in terms of him being too cool and handsome, I felt like there was a place for those kind of outcasts like he was in the 2000s that didn't really sit within the social norm, and that's kind of what he represented in that space. And the other thing I like about his Spider-Man, if you're talking about when they put on the suit, is he's the only Spider-Man. Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man is the only Spider-Man that fights like a spider, acts like a spider, and uses instincts like a spider. Like Tom Holland talks about his tinkle all the time, but if you look at Andrew Garfield and the way he moves around the lizard or the way that he moves in between swings, he does all the tricks that Spider-Man usually does. He's more athletic. You can see him like moving from building to building and web to web. And I feel like he's one of the only Spider-Man to do those sort of acrobatic tricks between his swinging because he was a skateboarder. And lots of people complained about Andrew Garfield being a skateboarder and Peter Parker being a skateboarder, but it kind of built the character in a way that showed that he was one, an outcast because skaters were usually pushed to the outer, and two, like he was when he was training with the chains in that area and using his skateboard as well, it was kind of like linking Peter and Spider-Man into that one character. So I feel like the representation of Peter and Spider-Man through Andrew Garfield is the best. Whereas in Tobey Maguire, it very much felt like two different people. Peter was one person and Spider-Man was another person. And like if you've ever re-watched any of the scenes with Tobey Maguire and Kirsten Dunce, gosh, that is some stale dialogue. Like I'm sorry, like nostalgia-wise, the movies are great, but if you look at those two trying to enact a like a scene of affection, it's just nothing. Like it's like the power's all gone out for me. And I I yeah, I look at those movies with love because of obviously what I grew up with and what I loved watching, and I loved Spider-Man growing up, and he will always have a nostalgic place in my heart. But Andrew Garfield to me is the epitome of a Spider-Man. Having read lots of different sort of comic books, having read The Ultimate Universe of Spider-Man and The Amazing Spider-Man, I feel like he fits it, he's just the best fit for me. And I don't think anybody's going to change my mind.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

I I I 100% agree that Andrew Garfield is the best Spider-Man. The Tom Harland Spider-Man movies are the best Spider-Man movies.

SPEAKER_03 27:27

Disagree.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

And hard disagree.

SPEAKER_03 27:30

I think they're the worst.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Toby Maguire's Spider-Man, the whole thing was I I liked the original Toby Maguire. I don't I I don't. Like I really don't like the first one. The first one was already the first one was good.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

The second one, bro. The second one's the good one. If I was to pick my favorite villains out of the first three movies, Doc Arc would be Doc Oc, man, and obviously Black Willem Defoe's Goblin.

unknown 27:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:53

Perfection.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

But like I think, but the thing is, I like Goblin and Doc Oc, probably the best things that came out of the same roomy Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Agree.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Not a fan. Like their relationships they had in the movies, not a fan.

Debating The Best Spider-Man

SPEAKER_03 28:14

Yeah. I'm not I'm not sure if it was a big point of contention when they came out, because obviously social media wasn't around and I wasn't on the internet or anything. But do you think people had a big uproar to him having natural webbing instead of them being constructed? Was that a big point of the stuff?

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Well, it sort of takes away from like Spider-Man being like the smartest person he's meant to be. Like he's got he's got like he just basically puts on a suit like and then like the whole thing, like yeah the web block in number two existential crisis. Like like the best thing that could the best thing that came out of it at the end of the day was when they all three of them were together in that Tom Holland movie. Yeah, it was hundreds all three like through all three of them together was fucking amazing. It was like magic.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

Um yeah, no, so uh to be on to be honest, I liked the move I liked the Tom Holland movies better because I felt the actual like the movies and the stories themselves were better. Like I'll give you Homecoming.

SPEAKER_03 29:13

Homecoming to me was great.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Homecoming stories.

SPEAKER_03 29:15

Homecoming to me was great, yeah. Oh no, didn't like that one.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

What?

SPEAKER_03 29:19

I didn't like that one. Nope, I didn't like that one. I liked No Way Home and I liked Homecoming. I didn't like the middle one. Civil War, his appearance in Civil War is great. You didn't like that. Jake Dylan Hall is a great actor.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

I thought that was a fucking uh because it cause it really demonstrated like because Mysterio is never Mysterio's not like a fighting no like character. He's a spinner, he's a smart and he's like and I I love that movie. I love the like how he fooled everyone, fooled everyone by bringing these fake monsters and like with the drones, and especially with the drones, like using the new technology, because how it used to be, he just put a fishbowl in his head and like spoke him, everything was spoken mirrors in the comics and everything like that. But with this, because it's in an age of new technology, yeah. I like new technology and all that kind of stuff, and then the way at the very end, making it seem like Spider-Man was the bad guy who killed this poor dude that was being gone around saving everyone as Mysterio, and then manipulation at its finest. It's like one of my favorite, that's like my favorite one of all.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

I think the the worst one for me is the start of No Way Home, the vehicle that they use to get the rifts all happening, with Spider-Man being like, I just want everybody to like go to MIT or whatever his wish was with Doctor Strange. I think that was very thin. But then after that, seeing everybody in the right place and like all the people from all the different universes coming together. I think that was very good. And seeing three Spider-Man on screen, can't deny that was absolutely amazing. But uh I've talked about this in a separate video as well. But the best part of that movie for me was the fact that Andrew Garfield got his closure, like that's why I like that movie, and it swings it back to the Amazing Spider-Man series.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Like the only thing I don't like about the Amazing Spider-Man 2, I know they had to do it because they didn't have to do it, but like they did it to bring out the emotion in it. But they've gotten rid of Gwen Stacy now, and she is a prominent character who could have at one point, ever, sometime have become Ghost Spider.

The Clock Tower Scene Breakdown

SPEAKER_03 31:19

Oh, yeah. I reckon she still could. Like, if they did that, if they had the Amazing Spider-Man 2 as it is now and they brought out an Amazing Spider-Man 3, there's no reason why they couldn't use some sort of hocus pocus to bring her back as Ghost Spider in that way or Spider Gwen. There's pictures and posters up of it, people want to see it, but I think for me, the ending was always one of the most pivotal points in the movie. Like for Mark Webb's Amazing Spider-Man 2, it was definitely the emotional center of the film the entire time. Like that clock tower scene.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Like it had to be done. Like well, but it's just unfortunate that it had to be it was Gwen Stacy.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

Yeah. I love everything about that scene, to be honest, because even the setting change, because in the comics, Gwen Stacy is dropped from a bridge, but in this one, it was intentionally chosen to be a clock tower because Mark Webb wanted to represent one thing, the gears being like the turning wheels of fate, metaphorically speaking, and then also within a clock tower, Peter's time is running out, and you can see him physically holding his foot up against that gear, trying his might as Spider-Man tries every single day to stop the eventuality of chaos that is going to ensue. And then eventually, obviously, he's put under so much pressure and so much tension, and you can see all of the different sound elements of that scene as well put together. There's that thrumming beat that just keeps increasing and increasing to the point of absolute destruction, and then everybody's sort of choking and losing weight. Yep, the web hand. That was extremely intentional as well. That was a bit cringe for me, to be honest. But Mark Webb said that that was very much intentional because he he wanted that to sort of represent her. Yep, reaching out to her, just making that visual metaphor of, you know, Peter is reaching out, not just the web, his desperation in that moment as well. But that like, and then the the gear snaps and his foot just can't hold it anymore, or Spider-Man can't hold it anymore. So he takes control.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

The way I see I can the reason why he failed was because instead of like and how he fixes it in No Way Home, instead of using like instead of using his own physical Peter Parker hand, he tried using his Spider-Man abilities instead. Instead of putting himself fully into it. See, I like that. And then he redeems himself by this time instead of instead of saving her as Spider-Man. Instead of leaning on his Spider-Man abilities and leaning on the Spider-Man to save the girl, he had trusted in himself to do it.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Peter saved her.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

I like for that. Yeah, exactly right. I was just about to say he he is the one who saved her, saved uh MJ in No Way Home, and he takes masks off, and so you know that's like it it's him that saves her. It wasn't like it wasn't him trying to, you know, he he it's like he was relying on his Spider-Man powers too much throughout the movie, like because he was able to do some fantastic shit with his webs saving people from getting electric cured from the bars and everything earlier, and like great scene, he didn't amazing scene, such a good scene. Um, but like and it is he he's it's like yeah, he relies on his webs and his Spider-Man abilities too much, and sort of this is what happens when he thinks like when he leans too much into the Spider-Man and not thinks and then sort of thinking about himself and the consequences of things around. Because like Peter's a smart guy, yeah. He knows he should have realized that like there's gonna be some elasticity in his web.

SPEAKER_03 34:43

Well, well, actually, originally Mark Webb wanted that scene to emulate the comics exactly where Peter actually shot the web to her, it captured her, and then her neck snapped as a result of the force, which is exactly what happens in the comics. But for me, two reasons that's why I wouldn't have liked to see that one. One, it kind of puts the immediate blame of her death on Peter Parker Spider-Man. Like that's a big fuck up, that's a mistake. And two, he does still blame himself though. I know, yeah. But I feel like because she hit the ground, the impact was what sort of hit her. And also the impact made it immediate. And that's what Mark Webb said. He said that there were some audiences that they showed it to that thought that that when they showed it the first time with the next snapping, even when they put in a superimposed sound, they said that it wasn't convincing enough and nobody believed that it would actually happen. Whereas he wanted it to be abrupt, he wanted it to be final, and he wanted it to be less spectacle, but more so it emotionally lands. So that's why the sound goes all the way down. There is no sound whatsoever except for that thumb. And then after that, all of the pieces of the gears just clatter around her, and the silence is used just as powerfully as any sort of soundtrack ever would, because then Peter Parker, Andrew Garfield, drops down, and apparently that that scene, when they were acting that scene, Andrew Garfield has said in interviews that that was one where they they had to work up to it, and it was one of the ones that was in the script that you know is there that you're kind of dreading doing because it's going to make or break the film. So he said he wanted like a closed set, which means that no only essential people on the set. And he said he did it in one or two takes, and they used most of the footage from the first take, but it was just emotionally raw, it was grounded, it was grief, because there was that immediate denial that he sees, and then the panic and the urgency when he's saying Gwen, Gwen, Gwen, come on, and then that quiet devastation. And then there was actually a scene that came out after that that they deleted where Andrew actually roars in agony, and then he goes up and beats the absolute snot out of Green Goblin, who's up there, but they thought that was a bit too rageful and that was a bit too vindictive. But if they did keep that one in, it would have fit well with the Spider-Man that we saw in No Way Home, who said that that's the path that he took. He got more vengeful, he stopped pulling his punches. It became not the amazing Spider-Man. He became a little bit more devastated and cold in that way.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

So I think I think like I think I do understand the No Way Home Andrew Garfield's spiderman when he said, like, I do get vengeful, and I I do see it happening more gradually. So, because like he quit altogether, and then the kid sort of helped brought him back into it again.

SPEAKER_03 37:16

No, I I think Gwen helped him come back into it, but that kid being there was just a reinforcing fact where he he saw that hope rippling out from the small actions that he did, which then when Gwen says things like, We have to be the hope we want to see, or we want you to be hope, because even in our darkest times, it's best to be the light. And then, you know, he came there and he saw that kid, and he's just like, Thanks for standing in for me while I was gone. That's like the the period or the full stop on what Gwen was saying, because he'd helped that kid earlier in a small act that nobody saw, because that's the thing with integrity as well. Integrity and what Uncle Ben always talks about is doing the right thing, even when nobody's watching. There was no benefit for Peter Parker to go in and help that kid with his wind turbine at all. And that is the epitome of Spider-Man. It's that is probably my second favorite scene in the whole movie is when he saves that kid. First being the clock tower, and the second being when he saves that kid from those bullies, because it's so it shows how much integrity Spider-Man has. And he's not violent with those bullies or anything like that. He just stands in the way of harm. And then that hope that that boy takes from that interaction with Spider-Man leads him on to do this brave act, yes, stupid act, but for a child, he probably thought he was being brave. And that would have just been for Peter Parker a full stop being like, Yes, I'm doing the right thing.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

So when he comes when because this is years and years later now, when they come into the nowhere, no way home. Yeah, correct. So he's come back into it with that full of hope. But I think with still the grief of not having Gwen Emo, I think and then it would have just been non-stop villains coming through all the time, and he's stopping them, putting them in the jail, stopping them, putting them in jail. I think like it probably would have ended up dragging home. That's why he's saying, like, eventually I slowly just started pulling my punches. I stopped pulling my punches and I started like actually hurting people because like because eventually like with because initially, yes, Gwen's words and the kid and like sort of renewed his hope and his faith in himself. And then without without May, without without May, without Gwen, without like Ben, I'm sorry, Ben without um Gwen, he sort of will just keep losing that. And they're like, I'm sure like at some point May, depending on how many years have gone by and what happened, May may have also passed on as well.

SPEAKER_03 39:38

100%. But this is always a Peter that we saw held guilt very strongly to the point where he was holding a relationship with Gwen at arm's length because of a promise he made George Stacy. He felt responsible for his death as well. So he he takes on a lot of guilt.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

Eat him alive eventually. And how how like that's why I believe him when home when he's like eventually it's got to me and I started pull stopped pulling my punches. I'm like, I'm like, yeah, I can I can see it. Like out of all the Spidermen, you probably have lost the most.

No Way Home Closure And MCU Hopes

SPEAKER_03 40:09

And that's actually the thing that convinced Andrew Garfield to to take the role again. He said basically the director came up to him and said, The only thing we've got set in stone is that you're gonna catch MJ. And Andrew Garfield said, Well, that's enough for me because he always felt like his character was unfinished. He'd he felt robbed, being let go from the the franchise he was in. So he felt like getting that closure was something that was very important to him. But yeah, I feel like I I feel like whatever could or should or may have happened with the Amazing Spider-Man 2, it should have ended the same way. I feel like Gwen should have passed because that third movie I really want to see or would want would have wanted to see Spider-Man dealing with that grief in a manner that honored Gwen and to see what he was like without that relationship. Because for the first two movies, Amazing Spider-Man 1 and 2, he was very much defined by that relationship with Gwen. So seeing how he exists beyond that and honoring that relationship would have been something interesting to me to watch, which is kind of why I don't like the fact that in this Tom Holland brand new day movie, Zendaya's MJ is still alive and moving on with life, and he's sort of on the outskirts being a little bit of a creeper looking in on that sort of space. And I'm just like, just let it go, man, just let it go. But I think maybe we might see a shift away from Ned and MJ, and we might move towards a like a different sort of look for Tom Hollands, maybe. But again, I'm holding hope for brand new day, but I'm I don't think it's gonna top anything that I feel about outside Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

In in the brand new day, he might let end up letting Zendaya go. And you know, he actually might meet Mary Jane.

SPEAKER_03 41:46

I hope he does. I hope he does. I hope he does let MJ go. But I think it's a bit on the nose for him to let MJ go and then find Mary Jane, like rebound.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Well, yeah, but but they but also what they could do is they could, you know, maybe he finds Gwen Stacy instead.

SPEAKER_03 42:03

Yeah, yeah, and that would be fine with me, like if they did a whole switcheroo on that.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

And maybe Gwen Stacy has a secret. Yeah, and maybe she is, maybe she is Ghostbudder, and maybe they might start like because now they're in phase four. Phase four?

SPEAKER_03 42:17

I don't know. Phase five. I'm off track. Phase five? Before we move away from the Gwen Stacy thing, if they're gonna do it, I want I want McKenna Grace to do it. Do you know McKenna Grace? Yes, I do. Yeah, I reckon she would be a great Gwen Stacy in the MCU.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:32

If she's gonna appear, I think McKenna Grace would be the one.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:37

Yeah. There is no second option for me, Brash. There's no point in you googling.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

No, yeah, I see it. I sort of see it.

SPEAKER_03 42:48

That as well being said, I don't feel like we need a love interest for Spider-Man in this this newest movie.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

Oh, so I I don't I don't want to be a love interest. I want it to be I don't want to be.

SPEAKER_03 42:57

Steinfield does it in uh Cross the Spider-Verse. I think she's a good voice.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

I love Steinfeld. Um she's like my whole little crush.

SPEAKER_03 43:06

Well, so does Josh Allen from the Buffalo Bills.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Yeah. Yeah.

Final Thoughts And Share Requests

SPEAKER_03 43:11

Like, I want to go in I want to go in Spider. I want to go in Spider movie. I would love that. Because that's my daughter's favorite character of all time. Yeah Spider-Gwen. And I'm just like, girl, you got taste. Yeah, she loves Spider-Gwen. Absolutely love that. That is all we have time for in this week's episode on The Amazing Spider-Man 2. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. If you love Spider-Man, please share this episode with a friend also. And you can go on to YouTube and check out some of our other Spider-Man content and some of our other fandom portals content as well. We have lots of bingeable episodes for you to watch. And we'd love it if you like, subscribed, and shared. Does wonders for small podcasters like us. And remember, if you know someone who loves movies or loves to get more out of their movies like we do, make sure you send this their way. All right. That's all from me, Aaron. Keep learning, keep growing, keep loving fandoms and film brash. Sunara. Hi everybody.