June 11, 2025

A Look Behind the Camera with Australian Filmmaker Michael Papaeleftheriou: A Cinematic Journey

Episode Summary:
This week on The Fandom Portals Podcast, Aaron is joined by Australian filmmaker Michael Papaeleftheriou, who takes us deep into the creative and logistical journey behind his short film Crossroads. From early Blockbuster inspiration to navigating the Australian indie scene, Michael shares how he evolved from directing no-budget shorts with friends to producing a festival-ready film built on intention, precision, and growth. They unpack the challenges of casting, editing, and creative control—and the power of learning through collaboration and setbacks.

Topics:

Discovering filmmaking through Kevin Smith DVDs and Blockbuster
Transitioning from early shorts (Park Bench) to Crossroads
Writing with intention: marketability vs. message
Building professionalism in indie filmmaking
The casting process: filtering for commitment and trust
Working with experienced actors (Shane Rodrigo, Leanne Mauro)
Relationship between director and DOP
Post-production challenges: staying over-prepared
Navigating film festival submissions via FilmFreeway
Why fear fades when preparation meets confidence
Tips for emerging filmmakers and screenwriters

Call to Action:
Loved Michael’s story?

Follow his journey via @crossroadsfilmjournal and stay tuned for the Crossroads release post-festival. Here: https://www.instagram.com/crossroadsfilmjournal/?locale=en

Website: https://www.michaelpapaeleftheriou.com/crossroads

IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm6916328/

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@michaelpapaeleftheriou

Crossroads Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-FCpvlexTA

Don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review, and join our mailing list at fandomportalspodcast.com for exclusive filmmaker interviews, giveaways, and deep dives into fandom and craft.

Apple Podcast Tags:
Indie Filmmaking, Australian Cinema, Kevin Smith Inspiration, Crossroads Short Film, Directing Tips, Short Film Festivals, Fandom Portals Podcast, Geek Freaks Network, Film School Advice, Casting Process, Behind the Scenes, Creative Control, Writing for Screen, Crime Genre, Emerging Filmmakers

Instagram: instagram.com/fandomportals/?locale=en
Threads: threads.net/@fandomportals
Email: fandomportals@gmail.com
Letterboxd: https://letterboxd.com/fandomportals

00:00 - Introduction to Australian Filmmaker Michael

03:22 - Journey into Filmmaking and Career Path

11:42 - Making "Crossroads" and Production Challenges

19:32 - Post-Production Process and Editing Insights

25:34 - Film Festival Experience and Marketing

38:05 - Advice for Aspiring Filmmakers

47:55 - Crime Genre and Writing Process

WEBVTT

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Thank you you.

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Hi everybody from the fandom portals community.

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It's aaron here and I would like to proudly introduce you to our newest guest, whose name is Michael Papalef-Berot.

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He's an Australian filmmaker, director and producer and also dabbles in a little bit of acting and writing.

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And Michael works in the indie scene and has recently put his short film, crossroads, into some of the film festival scenes around the world.

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That was a really great chat with Michael.

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He revealed a lot of his process in terms of filmmaking and he was also a really nice guy to talk to.

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It was really awesome to get to know him, and he has also agreed to appear on the Fandom Portals podcast again to discuss one of his favorite movies, the Matrix.

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So please enjoy this episode of the Fandom Portals podcast featuring the Australian filmmaker, michael Papeleff-Thoreau.

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Welcome to the Fandom Portals podcast, the podcast that explores how fandoms can help you learn and grow.

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I'm your host, aaron Davies, and today I'm joined by Michael Pape Elefero.

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Michael is a filmmaker, a writer, producer and editor, and he's got a short coming out which is called Crossroads.

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Thank you for joining me, michael.

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How are you today?

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I'm awesome, aaron.

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Thanks for having me.

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Very, very welcome.

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Now, we were talking before about how you've gone on a pretty big journey in terms of your filmmaking career.

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Some credits to you.

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You've done some short films, including Park Bench, no Way Out and Crossroads, over the last couple of years, and we might get into those a little bit later.

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But before we do, I wanted to talk to you about what sort of inspired you to jump into this field.

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What led you into the filmmaking scene?

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It's obviously a passion of yours.

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I can tell by how much dedication and work you've put into these projects.

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So where did it all start?

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for you.

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So what happened?

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was I just finished my like.

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It was like the last day of I don't know if you guys have the hsc in in queensland yeah, we have something similar it was the last day, like just finished the last test, and like I was like, all right, mom, like you owe me for some reason, you owe me, take me to blockbuster.

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I'm getting like I'm getting five movies at once, um, so I did that and then um had a bit of an epiphany where I realized, like I I was always familiar with the characters Jay and Silent Bob, but I just assumed they were like in one movie and then I saw that they were on the cover of another movie and I was like, what, you can't just like put the same characters in different movies.

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That's like that's illegal, right.

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So I rented Morat's and when I saw that that, like Kevin Spieth had just stuck his characters in other movies, I was like, oh well, if he's allowed to do that, then I'm allowed to make movies, right.

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Like the logic somehow clicked.

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And then on all the movies that I rented, I just consumed the special features and like by the end of that week I was like, oh, I want to do filmmaking School engineering.

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Yeah, oh man, we have that in common because I think, like Blockbuster Video was just an experience for anyone that kind of grew up in the 90s.

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You'd go there and your weekend was just fully planned for you with whatever you rented out.

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But I think, like those 90s filmmakers, they kind of made well, made sort of filmmaking look accessible because they Because they started from really nothing, they hired their friends to be in these kinds of movies and then they made careers out of these sorts of things, like we recently just did Jersey Girl on the podcast, which is a Kevin Smith movie as well, when he went to go into a more sort of serious run without the Silent Jay and Silent Bob.

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But yeah, it's just funny to see how that kind of thing can develop into a career.

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But I think there is a lot of barriers for a lot of people where it seems out of reach.

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And very much like you, I consume a lot of the special features on dvds as well, so and it does kind of open the door for it and it's sort of my toes in like curiosity wise and I'm starting to talk to some people about it, but I don't know if I'd go down the sort of filmmaking route, but kudos to you for doing it.

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Man seems like a big undertaking.

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You started in writing, is that correct?

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not.

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I did start in writing.

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I've sort of pivoted towards writing.

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It's just so much more accessible and like it's easier to be honest yeah, I can fully see that because, um, the only thing that I would think about writing was that it kind of when you hand that script or that that screenplay over, you're kind of handing over creative control, I guess you can say, or the vision of how it will look on the screen.

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With your, with your sort of filmmaking experience, you've done work as a, an actor, a director and a producer.

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What kind of roles have you found?

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And an editor as well, what kind of roles have you found?

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Is your preferred for one, and which one do you think is the most challenging in terms of those spaces in film?

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I'm gonna go with like the the cop-out answer and just say you know, preferred is like writer, director.

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That's like everyone's quote-unquote dream, um.

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But I feel like I've developed a bit of a specialty for producing.

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You know, you go to film school and like you learn about all the fancy art stuff, but for some reason, like you sort of, yeah, there's a big deficit in just getting things done and like that is actually what you need to be doing, especially if you, you know, not just pay money to go to film school, but like pay time.

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That's a.

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That's something that a lot of people don't realize.

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If you're gonna to take a three-year full-time course, it's like three years that you could have been doing something else.

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So you have to like make the most of those three years.

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And you know, the best thing about film school is like you have free equipment, essentially, that you can rent, so you should really just be making as much stuff happen as possible.

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I think that's sort of where my strength is, even though I don't really do it too often anymore.

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And I think the connections as well correct me if I'm wrong, but all of the people that you kind of meet in film school are people that you could potentially work with later.

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But also at the time when you're working with them, it's good to, in a collaborative experience, you know, bounce off of each other instead of doing everything all by yourself, which is pretty big as well.

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So you said you went to film school and the sort of like with the state of Australian films and especially indie films right now.

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Was it ever like a confronting thing for you?

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Like you said, you sort of jumped into it after your HSC.

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Was it ever confronting thinking that the Australian space isn't so large?

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Jesse, was ever confronting thinking that the Australian space isn't so large, like what were some of the challenges in terms of of making a film for an Australian space?

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And then obviously we had like COVID-19 as well, which would have impacted the industry too.

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I don't think I ever got far enough to really give you a serious answer with regards to that.

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There is something like awkward that I've realized as I've kept making more and more not making more, but like writing more and more.

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You know, when you, I think, when you come up in the Australian circuit, everyone is like very quote unquote arts, healthy, all the stories like, even even like in film school, not just with regards to what gets made, but in film school you're surrounded by people that are, you know, quote-unquote visionaries or, uh, quote-unquote.

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You know they, they want stories that it's like, oh, the human spirit and all this and that.

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But you know, most of the movies that get made especially, but most of the movies that just get made in general, are you know marketable things that you could see in a cinema.

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Um, I think that is, it's a.

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It's a sort of shame that we disregard those a little bit, because I feel like australian cinema sort of shoots itself in the foot and even when something awesome does come out, it's like it's not supported, because I think, you know, the consensus is that, oh, if it's australian, then it's going to boring.

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Meanwhile we've got everyone at film school being like, oh, like you know, these stories are also like special, but, you know, no one cares.

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And if no one cares, then like well, I can be able to make more, and that's the catch 22.

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Has that influenced your writing at all?

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Because I know that some writers do write to the market, but other people write to sort of express a vision.

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So has that sort of influenced your writing, or are you one of those people that really want to sort of express what you you feel that you want to express?

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it probably did influence my writing in the wrong way.

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At the beginning.

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It really hampered me, you know, especially when you go to film school and you're learning about like theme and you know, like, what is your story saying?

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And I've I've been lucky and like I got caught up in that stuff and then I got lucky enough to really surround myself with the right kind of other writers, and you know that stuff's all crap because at the end of the day, like, if you can't write something that's interesting, no one cares about what you have to say.

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Like there's been so many you know up-and-coming writers that are like you know, he's my script, I'll read, I'll give him feedback, and then they'll be like, oh, but you know, but you don't understand the story.

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It's like, well, like I understand it, I just don't care because, like you haven't done a good job of writing and, to be honest, like that sort of blockbuster-y stuff where it's like something simple, for example, like, like you know, there's a character in a hallway they want to get from one side of a hallway to the other side of the hallway and there's all these obstacles, whether it's, like you know, furniture or another character that's trying to like like, stop them, then maybe there's another character chasing them.

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These are the sort of the simple, you know tools of scene work that you really need to get good at if you want to make something interesting.

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It's like that's the basics and the basics and people sort of fuck go those because you know they have this like grand theme and it's sort of like you're missing the work.

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You're missing doing like lifting like 10 kilos on the bench press and you're going straight to like 100 kilos.

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No one cares about your theme if you can't like write it in a good way.

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So yeah, hindered me at the start, but I sort of got lucky enough to surround myself with the right people.

00:11:10.668 --> 00:11:36.398
Yeah, and I think from following your like, because I've sort of had a bit of a look at your Instagram journal that you did for Crossroads, which we'll talk about really soon but I like how open and honest you were a bit in the process through that and I think it was really like it made it accessible, but it was also, I want to say it seemed therapeutic for you to sort of put it down in that way.

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Chronologically, I think I saw one of your reels where you said, on the down days or the low points, on the days, you'll you'll go and you'll look back at all of the things that you've put on this journal for crossroads and it will show you how far you've kind of come.

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So I guess my question is from from my park bench to crossroads, what's?

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When you went to approach crossroads as your, as your short film that you were going to do, it obviously took a very different approach.

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You said you wanted to dive right in.

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Basically, can you explain a little bit about crossroads and a little bit about that process of transitioning from a project that I think you said you cast your friends in and things like that, to something like crossroads, where it's a little bit more sort of professional and something that you want to really dive into so my earlier projects were, like you know, very much the the fantasy of like filmmaking where it's like yep, just get your friends, so let's see what we could do and like let's learn as well, and that was great, like there were great learning opportunities.

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Like you know, I made some big mistakes with the earlier films, especially Park Bench like the audio is horrible, but you know I use the those earlier films as like stepping stones and like as as a way to learn.

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Um, I didn't really like I submitted to a few festivals and never got in, which makes sense, but the goal there was just to learn.

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And the goal with crossroads was to like sort of reverse engineer a career.

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So, like I I sort of started at the end with Crossover.

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It's like I want money to make a feature.

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How do I get money to make a feature?

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Like I took a meeting with Screen New South Wales and they said, well, you know, after we've looked at you know I had a chat with them, like a video chat, sort of like I'm doing now.

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I told them this is, this is what I've done, this is what I'm doing.

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And they said, okay, like you, to get funding is to make a short film.

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You've got to hit these markers, you've got to get accepted to such and such festival and then you'll be eligible for funding.

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So now I'm the first engineering things.

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Okay, gonna make a short film.

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I'm gonna make it like to the highest quality as I can.

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I've been writing heaps of crime, so like let's put in the crime genre.

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You know, all the mistakes from my earlier films were like the unpredictable elements.

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All right, let's keep it at one location.

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We're not going to even move locations, it's going to be indoors.

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So like there's no, because with park bench it was, it was better to be a four-day shoot ended up being a two-day shoot and then from that we went to a one-day shoot because when we got to location the wind was so intense like I had I prepared the audio equipment, we had like a blink, we had everything, but the wind was so intense that the actors faces like you could tell that they were just being bombarded by a sand.

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And like there's like a once in a year sort of a windstorm and yeah, like that doesn't happen often, but when you're renting your equipment, when you're getting like people to work on your film, you sort of want to make the most of it.

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So I didn't want that variable.

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So like now we're indoors and yeah, I just that's where I went and I guess I wrote something to from there.

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Like I wrote the script to the setting and I wanted to get two characters, because that's sort of like the minimum you need for like something juicy, and it sort of just wrote itself from there.

00:14:48.642 --> 00:14:59.634
To be honest, so when you, when you're writing crossroads, you picked a familiar genre, like like crime, uh, that you sort of were comfortable with at the time, and then your location scouting you were.

00:14:59.634 --> 00:15:01.719
You picked a single sort of space.

00:15:01.719 --> 00:15:06.366
I guess it was an instance of moving parts, like keeping elements within your control.

00:15:06.366 --> 00:15:07.009
Would that be accurate?

00:15:07.129 --> 00:15:09.238
yeah, and that that was a big thing that I learned from the earlier films, especially park bench.

00:15:09.238 --> 00:15:11.345
An instance of moving parts like keeping elements within your control, would that be accurate?

00:15:11.345 --> 00:15:13.932
Yeah, and that was a big thing that I learned from the earlier films, especially.

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Park Bench, which was outdoors.

00:15:16.745 --> 00:15:23.097
Yeah, I think all those stepping stones really sort of paid off into this final sort of vision for you With Crossroads as well.

00:15:23.097 --> 00:15:37.456
You explained in your video journal about the process of casting and how you initially went for an approach that was pretty open and then, when you closed that and made it a little bit more difficult, it was a little bit more beneficial for you.

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Did you want to talk about what you've learned about casting from your Crossroads experience as well?

00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:44.019
Yeah.

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So again, coming from like those early days where you've got like bright, wide open eyes and you know you think the world is all sort of like flowery, you quickly, once you sort of like corner yourself and you're like because to make crossroads, like I went back home to like work with my network essentially, so I had limited time there, so I was like I had some big constraints and that sort of like I started out being like oh, like you know, it's open to everyone.

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You know, I only need like these basic things, like I just need a headshot and you know I'll look at your profile and I'll figure out, like from your profile if you're good enough and that, just like I started getting like I enough and that, just like I started getting like I had a female character and I started having like, for example, like males applying you know just ridiculous stuff.

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That was like sort of wasting my time.

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I ended up being like all right, if you want to apply, like I'm gonna put a make you put in a lot more work, I'm gonna have you like have a headshot, I'm gonna have you answer these questions and, like you know, a lot of people didn't even answer the question, so it's like all right, like you don't even, you're not serious, you're not on this level, because, like you're not even following those sort of instructions.

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Like I need you to read the script, I need you to do a self tape, um, and like all this stuff.

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Like I know that actors hate all the work that they have to do beforehand, but it's like if I, if I don't make you guys do the work, it's like I've got to do the work, um, and I was just at a point where, like I just I sort of just didn't care, like I was, and the thing is like none of these things really dictated like what, like whether the actor would get the role, like, like I wasn't going to be, like oh well, that's it, you're out.

00:17:25.900 --> 00:17:30.321
It's sort of just a thing of like how committed are you to this?

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Because, like, I've had an actor pull out of a project like on the day, and it's like I can't afford any of that stuff for this one.

00:17:37.186 --> 00:17:40.512
So it was sort of just like a test to see how committed they were.

00:17:40.512 --> 00:18:03.851
And then, once they showed me that I was like quite responsive to you know, getting back to them and you know, organizing like a proper audition, sometimes even like for my actor, like I went to his house, like I drove like one and a half hours to his house to audition him and like I was willing to do that because he had put some effort in and I I knew that if I, if it was, if it was right for the part, then like why wouldn't I spend that time?

00:18:05.134 --> 00:18:05.717
yeah, and that's that.

00:18:05.717 --> 00:18:08.003
That's a uh buy--in as well.

00:18:08.003 --> 00:18:22.401
If they're going to actually put in the effort to send you the things that you want to or arrange a meeting with you and meet with you, it gives them that buy-in and it gives you that confidence that they're going to apply themselves to the project and they know that you're making something authentically as well.

00:18:22.401 --> 00:18:24.238
That was Shane Rodrigo, correct.

00:18:24.238 --> 00:18:25.590
That's your primary actor.

00:18:25.590 --> 00:18:26.932
Yeah, exactly, yeah, shane Rodrigo, correct.

00:18:26.951 --> 00:18:28.094
That's your primary actor yeah, exactly, yeah.

00:18:28.233 --> 00:18:32.518
What were some of the challenges in terms of casting?

00:18:32.518 --> 00:18:35.901
What were some of the benefits as well, of working with some pretty experienced actors?

00:18:35.901 --> 00:18:43.569
Because you had Shane Rodrigo and you had Leanne Mauro Is that how you say her surname Leanne Mauro Mauro?

00:18:43.569 --> 00:18:45.679
Yeah, so you had a couple of experienced actors.

00:18:45.679 --> 00:18:49.028
What was it like working with some people that were experienced in the field?

00:18:49.048 --> 00:18:56.630
basically, it was probably the best thing that like I've ever experienced with regards to filmmaking.

00:18:56.630 --> 00:19:02.880
You know I can like with my earlier shorts, like I I wanted to use friends, I wanted to learn.

00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:05.471
I didn't want to like get professionals and be like hey.

00:19:05.471 --> 00:19:09.501
So like I'm this new guy and like I just need you to like do what I say.

00:19:09.501 --> 00:19:18.902
Like I wanted to like sort of build myself up and it was fun working with my actor friends, my non-actor friends.

00:19:18.902 --> 00:19:35.739
It was fun working with like people at my level but they really challenged me to, like you know, become like a way better director and they actually taught me heaps and, honestly, more than any other project, like I felt like I had people in my corner.

00:19:35.739 --> 00:19:40.375
Like I feel like you know, when you're doing these like smaller projects, you're always pushing people.

00:19:41.232 --> 00:19:56.040
But and another thing, with like starting out as a filmmaker, you tend to cast actors that are like in their twenties and you know that's fine, like that's sort of the stories that you're writing about, but they probably don't have all that much to teach you.

00:19:56.040 --> 00:20:14.905
So this was like me having a chance to work with people that you know had sort of gone through the ropes kind of bit and who also didn't really want to be messed around with, like they didn't want their time wasted, and because of that I felt like, oh, do I hear it?

00:20:14.905 --> 00:20:18.935
Like these two people are almost pulling me along, like they're sort of helping me.

00:20:18.935 --> 00:20:22.002
So I I learned apes just from like working with them.

00:20:22.002 --> 00:20:34.522
We did a lot of rehearsals and, honestly, like that was probably like my favorite experience of the film, just like working with two phenomenal actors it sounds like it was was pretty rewarding as well.

00:20:34.603 --> 00:20:43.609
And then with the like the, the set and the actual sort of shooting, there was a lot of things that sort of led up to the day, like the day that you were sort of shooting all the scheduling and things like that.

00:20:43.609 --> 00:20:51.819
There was a quite a few posts that I saw around the shot list and the scheduling and the call list and things like that.

00:20:51.819 --> 00:20:57.316
Can you talk to some of the challenges that was in the post-production of the short film?

00:21:01.479 --> 00:21:14.026
With regards to the lead-up, it's so weird because I went back to Sydney and I thought I would shoot three short films like while I was there, and you know that quickly became one short film.

00:21:14.026 --> 00:21:18.337
A big part of that was like me and my dob like trying to find time for each other, oh yeah.

00:21:18.337 --> 00:21:36.037
So that quickly went to one short and you know I regret that there were some days that he was free, that I prioritized work and I realized I should have just, you know, called in sick, taking a day off, because we weren't really able to get the shot list at 110 before getting on set.

00:21:36.037 --> 00:21:44.750
We weren't really able to get the schedule 110 and these sort of documents like there's no reason that you should be able to have them like set in stone like a month before the shoot.

00:21:44.750 --> 00:21:50.896
And what happens on every project is that, like the day before the shoot, people are like rushing around like oh, what are we doing?

00:21:50.896 --> 00:21:54.356
And it's like we, why isn't this stuff already set in stone?

00:21:54.356 --> 00:22:00.896
Like we, when we get to set, we should just be focused on shooting, we should just be focused on executing, not coming up with a plan.

00:22:00.896 --> 00:22:08.470
So that was a bit of a shame, but it sort of worked out because in my head you can never be over prepared.

00:22:08.470 --> 00:22:17.867
So, for example, with park bench, like I wanted to shoot it over four nights, we shot it over one night and I was happy with all the shots that we got because I was over prepared.

00:22:17.867 --> 00:22:19.313
I knew exactly what shots we could lose.

00:22:19.313 --> 00:22:22.421
I knew what shots, like, we should take extra time on, get extra takes.

00:22:22.421 --> 00:22:27.442
I knew what shots we could just get away with doing one take because I was over prepared.

00:22:27.442 --> 00:22:35.564
And you know when the accidents happen on set, that's when being over prepared becomes being just regular prepared.

00:22:35.564 --> 00:22:46.131
But if you, if you think you're going to get away with just being regular, like a regular amount of prepared, and then an accident happens, well you're, you're feeling screwed, essentially, so we could have done better.

00:22:46.131 --> 00:22:49.513
But I think that's how it always is, like in the lead up, like you can always do better.

00:22:50.838 --> 00:22:53.608
Um, with the post-production, I had two weeks to edit it.

00:22:53.608 --> 00:22:56.076
I sort of you know I was leading simian.

00:22:56.076 --> 00:23:06.035
I wanted to just get it wrapped because what I was going to do was disassemble my computer and take it with me and who knows, maybe my the airline would lose my luggage, maybe I don't know.

00:23:06.035 --> 00:23:12.789
So just said I'm finishing the film, I'm finishing editing before I leave, and from there it was honestly pretty smooth.

00:23:12.789 --> 00:23:15.155
Like I worked with some like my day up.

00:23:15.155 --> 00:23:17.321
He did the color grade, he was quite busy.

00:23:17.321 --> 00:23:19.396
I worked with a professional sound mixer.

00:23:19.396 --> 00:23:20.240
She was quite busy.

00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:23.478
When they did what they did, it was like wow.

00:23:23.478 --> 00:23:41.419
I don't usually watch my, I don't really like going back to watch my own stuff, but I've watched this film like quite a few times because I just I really like it for once yeah, that's really good to hear, man, because when you put so much work into something, looking back on it, reflecting as always, because we're always our own West Critter, can't we as well?

00:23:41.499 --> 00:24:02.362
when you're looking back at your own work, you the little nuances, or the slight little thing that you might have missed in a scene, or if this over here was moved slightly, like all those little things, because, yeah, you are so close to the, to the project you mentioned before about your dop and yourself, I think for me, I haven't really well, I've underestimated the importance of the relationship between the director and the dop.

00:24:03.172 --> 00:24:21.337
It sounds like it's really important I think any relationship that's a good relationship is important and it just sort of happens to be that, you know, michael is my DOP considering we get the same name but he's probably been my closest collaborator throughout, like all my projects, because we're just sort of on the same wavelength.

00:24:21.337 --> 00:24:23.837
We've sort of always been in the same sort of position.

00:24:23.837 --> 00:24:28.236
You know, when he pushes, I pull, when I push, he pulls.

00:24:28.236 --> 00:24:30.096
We're just like we know each other.

00:24:30.096 --> 00:24:34.017
And you know, I remember, like you know, shane is just such a particular actor.

00:24:34.017 --> 00:24:36.598
He was like, yeah, you know, so how are you and your DAP?

00:24:36.598 --> 00:24:44.458
Because he's sticking back to times where, like, he's in a direct and DAP fight on set, which is not, you know, it's not abnormal.

00:24:44.458 --> 00:24:55.354
And I was like, yeah, look, we're great, like we.

00:24:55.354 --> 00:24:58.482
Probably we will have a bit of a back and forth on set, but it's just because we don't need to, we can skip the pleasantries, like sort of thing.

00:24:58.482 --> 00:25:00.148
So it is really nice having that relationship with just anyone.

00:25:00.209 --> 00:25:22.079
It just so happens to be that it is with my DAP and you know, I wouldn't know how to work with someone else at this point thinking about the, the post-production of the film, because I know for me like podcasting, editing like this is the fun part basically, but editing is the worst kind of thing to get yourself motivated to do and keep that momentum and just keep sort of pushing along With your editing process.

00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:31.576
What's involved in editing a short film and what were some of the drawbacks and challenges that you had to to get the end production that you're obviously really happy with?

00:25:33.540 --> 00:25:41.890
I would say the biggest challenge was trying to watch it with a fresh pair of eyes when, like that's impossible.

00:25:41.890 --> 00:25:51.085
You know, there was, there's this one sequence of cuts where it's like, you know, in like two seconds it's like four cuts, five cuts.

00:25:51.085 --> 00:26:03.215
And my, on my first run, like I had compressed that because I had seen the footage so many times that the cuts were all registered to me as like fluid.

00:26:03.215 --> 00:26:13.143
But the challenge for me was like how do I get these cuts fluid for a first time viewer that doesn't know what the next shot is, whose brain isn't ahead of the shots.

00:26:13.143 --> 00:26:14.650
So that was my first.

00:26:14.650 --> 00:26:15.854
That was the most challenging part.

00:26:15.854 --> 00:26:26.676
But, to be honest, the rest of it was pretty easy because, again, just being over prepared, like the film was essentially edited before we started shooting, like I already knew what was what it was going to be.

00:26:26.676 --> 00:26:37.576
There were a few sort of happy accidents along the way, like my dvp turned three different shot setups into one um, so that dictated how the edit flowed.

00:26:37.636 --> 00:26:41.692
But you know, again, like I'm just, I'm just the type of person that's over prepared.

00:26:41.692 --> 00:26:49.099
And the thing about if you're not going to be over prepared, what you're going to do is you're going to be like all right, well, I need a, I need a wide shot of these two people talking.

00:26:49.099 --> 00:26:51.919
And now I need an over the shoulder shot of the whole conversation.

00:26:51.919 --> 00:26:52.703
Now I need it.

00:26:52.703 --> 00:26:53.247
From the other angle.

00:26:53.247 --> 00:26:59.563
It's like, well, okay, that's just, like, that's just wasted, like I don't know how long, but like way too much.

00:26:59.563 --> 00:27:11.219
If I know that I don't want the over the shoulder shots until like five minutes into the film, the film, like we don't need to do any, we don't need to waste time with that.

00:27:11.219 --> 00:27:19.852
So you know, being over over prepared like it doesn't just help the day go smoother and and like it doesn't just help you stay ahead of schedule, but it also helps you just, you know, be a much more conscious director and editor.

00:27:19.852 --> 00:27:24.086
And yeah, I gotta say, like it was, it's actually like a pretty easy edit.

00:27:24.909 --> 00:27:25.289
That's really.

00:27:25.289 --> 00:27:32.739
Yeah, that's really good to hear, because I know that sometimes it can be a little bit of a bog down, but yeah, because it went so well.

00:27:32.739 --> 00:27:49.590
I think that some of the some of the things that you talked about in your, your video journal was the fact that you you now sort of would approach projects without a sort of level of of fear attached to it, like there was a little bit of nervousness going into this project.

00:27:49.590 --> 00:27:50.894
Did you want to explain that?

00:27:50.894 --> 00:27:55.974
And then the process afterwards where you sort of let that go yeah.

00:27:56.035 --> 00:28:11.501
So, like I think, for every project, you you're sort of scared, um, you know, uh, man, I hate to, I hate to get like what's it called a self-help on everyone, um, but I was watching this interview with George St-Pierre, who's an MMA fighter.

00:28:11.501 --> 00:28:14.996
The way he breaks down things really resonates with me.

00:28:14.996 --> 00:28:22.325
And he was saying, like, you know, there's this element of fear where and he's trying to break down fear like, what is fear?

00:28:22.325 --> 00:28:23.769
Like, why am I feeling fear?

00:28:23.769 --> 00:28:26.679
And he's like, well, the fear is coming because I don't have confidence.

00:28:26.679 --> 00:28:27.500
Why aren't I confident?

00:28:27.500 --> 00:28:28.040
It's feeling fear.

00:28:28.040 --> 00:28:29.583
And he's like, well, the fee is coming because I don't have confidence.

00:28:29.583 --> 00:28:30.063
Why aren't I confident?

00:28:30.063 --> 00:28:30.983
It's because I haven't prepared properly.

00:28:31.003 --> 00:28:31.824
So, like, how do you overcome that fear?

00:28:31.824 --> 00:28:44.171
You prepare, you know what you're going to do, you practice your scenarios, you test yourself and then when you get there, the nerves will wash away because you have prepared and I guess it's like you're not facing the unknown.

00:28:44.171 --> 00:28:45.791
You know what's going to happen when this happens.

00:28:45.791 --> 00:28:46.952
You know what's going to happen when this happens.

00:28:46.952 --> 00:28:48.775
You know what's going to happen when this goes wrong.

00:28:48.775 --> 00:28:53.278
And I think, you know, every filmmaker is sort of sort of does have a healthy amount of fear.

00:28:53.278 --> 00:29:21.026
But if I just if I go back to literally every set I've ever been on, the fear comes from like not being prepared and you know this was the first time where my preparation met expectations and because of that, like it's you know it's not an unknown variable for me anymore Like I know that if I prepare in this way, I will get these, like I should get these results.

00:29:23.790 --> 00:29:27.930
Now, don't get me wrong, if there's a windstorm, I can't help that.

00:29:27.930 --> 00:30:12.737
But the fact that I went through like a project like this from start to finish and got like great results like that, that unhealthy vr has just washed away because you know, if they, if they got me to direct like avengers 10, like most people are going to be like oh my gosh, oh my gosh, whereas I would just be like, well, avengers 10 is literally crossroads, but like there's a lot more scenes in it and it's going to be like I don't know, a bit under 10 times longer, like there's not the only thing that's changed is like the runtime, but the fact that I can do one scene, which crossroads was essentially like one scene, but the fact that I can do that to like this level, that I'm satisfied with all the unhealthy fear is gone now and everything does look so professional.

00:30:12.757 --> 00:30:15.450
I've seen the trailer that's available, that you've shot as well and the actors do a brilliant job and the lighting's perfect as well.

00:30:15.450 --> 00:30:19.838
I think that that fear that you're talking about that's gone.

00:30:19.838 --> 00:30:22.731
It's learning through doing, which is like.

00:30:22.731 --> 00:30:37.377
I'm a teacher by profession, and that's literally the best way that kids learn as well is getting them into this space and actually allowing them to to experience something themselves, instead of sort of telling them how it's going to be and what they should know.

00:30:37.377 --> 00:30:40.352
It's really like the best sort of sort of learning.

00:30:40.352 --> 00:30:53.005
So I think from this project it sounds like that you've you've got a lot of sort of takeaways and a lot of things that you could bring into other projects and, I guess, a larger network of people you could sort of talk to about different things as well.

00:30:53.005 --> 00:30:58.583
In your newer role, as you said, you pivoted into sort of writing.

00:30:58.583 --> 00:31:10.712
Do you think that you would go back to do something in terms of filmmaking, directing again or soon, or are you pretty satisfied in the in the writing space right now?

00:31:12.077 --> 00:31:13.865
yeah, I'm beyond satisfied with writing.

00:31:13.865 --> 00:31:17.798
To be honest, if I did for the rest of my life I'd be happy, professionally or not.

00:31:17.798 --> 00:31:24.012
But you know I I definitely would be open to pivot back into filmmaking down the line.

00:31:24.012 --> 00:31:38.154
It's just that, like you know, crossroads was like six months of, like you know, working like a laboring job and saving up and then spending all that money on like 15 minutes, less than 15 minutes, of film.

00:31:38.154 --> 00:31:41.846
Actually I don't think I've got that in me again.

00:31:42.067 --> 00:31:46.558
Like you know, I need, I need something else to happen, like I need to, you know, get some funding.

00:31:46.558 --> 00:31:52.730
Or I need, like I need someone else to come and say hey, michael, like I want to work with you, like let's, let's do something together.

00:31:52.730 --> 00:32:02.702
But for me to just like carry everything or almost everything and like drag everyone else along and give up sort of six months of my time, is like I don't think I could do that again.

00:32:02.702 --> 00:32:10.795
And the thing is like I could make an even simpler film.

00:32:10.795 --> 00:32:11.959
But I really enjoy the process of that collaboration.

00:32:11.980 --> 00:32:15.534
Um, like I could shoot a film all by myself if I wanted to, but honestly that wouldn't really interest me.

00:32:15.534 --> 00:32:17.323
Like the process of that would interest me.

00:32:17.323 --> 00:32:18.166
I know there's a lot.

00:32:18.166 --> 00:32:22.608
A lot of people say, oh, you've got to do everything yourself, you've got to learn by doing yourself, and I get that.

00:32:22.608 --> 00:32:36.198
But, like you know, those special features that I saw on those DVDs, like those filmmakers of the 90s, their thing wasn't making films on their own, like that was their thing, was like making films and collaborating, and that's what drew me into this in the first place.

00:32:36.198 --> 00:32:45.903
So I would hate to lose that, but at the same time I'm not in a place where I can do that to the level that I'm happy with, without sacrificing heaps of time and money which I just I don't have.

00:32:46.523 --> 00:32:53.996
Yeah, and I can understand that too, because it can take a lot out of you to create something like this.

00:32:53.996 --> 00:32:56.261
It's almost like a I don't know, like a 12-week challenge or something like.

00:32:56.261 --> 00:33:02.913
It's just so intensive for that short amount of time and you're running at this certain sort of level and then you know once that's sort of over.

00:33:02.913 --> 00:33:04.596
I guess that's my question for you as well.

00:33:04.596 --> 00:33:20.298
When this sort of wrapped and when it finished and everything was edited and you watched the film for the final time, what were some of the feelings that you experienced, knowing that this was done and it was done to the quality that you kind of were happy with and were comfortable releasing to the public?

00:33:21.961 --> 00:33:22.542
It's just relief.

00:33:22.542 --> 00:33:25.596
Like you know, a lot of people, a lot of people ask me like are you happy?

00:33:25.596 --> 00:33:26.037
Are you happy?

00:33:26.037 --> 00:33:37.865
And like I don't know, like I'm not happy, I'm just, I'm just very relieved, relieved that it's like of a good quality and that it's finished.

00:33:38.450 --> 00:34:02.038
But with that said, it's like it's sort of still not finished, because I'm again and the reason why I made the, the journal, is because, you know, I feel like I'm at a level where it's like once you have some success at this level, you sort of it's not in your best interest to share that success, to share how you're navigating this, because there's so many um, there's so many things that happen that are unspeakable.

00:34:02.038 --> 00:34:07.597
You don't want to say them and sort of tarnish not number one.

00:34:07.597 --> 00:34:16.192
It's like you don't want to tarnish what you're doing, but number two is like you don't want to tell other people about this, because if everyone jumped in on this, then like it's going to make it harder for you.

00:34:16.192 --> 00:34:23.597
So a big thing for me is like, once you hit this level, it's like there's no information, like people are not forthcoming.

00:34:23.597 --> 00:34:29.860
So I was trying, I think, with a, with the journal, was to sort of share that experience and yeah, so.

00:34:29.860 --> 00:34:32.597
So the thing is it's not finished because I I didn't realize.

00:34:32.637 --> 00:34:37.233
But this whole film festival thing is its own, like other battle, and I'm just learning that now.

00:34:37.233 --> 00:34:54.815
So you know, I am I'm still doing marketing, like I'm still like I'm doing these podcasts, like i'm'm constantly updating the press kit, I'm emailing like festival directors, I'm working on a post art that's like of great quality.

00:34:54.815 --> 00:35:02.965
You know, being able to think about it from a festival director's point of view wasn't something that I really considered before.

00:35:02.965 --> 00:35:11.199
Like you know, if you have like a subpar poster, most festivals are trying to like raise their level of prestige with your film.

00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:20.755
If you have a subpar poster, it's sort of like saying it's sort of like me with the actors, like I'm not passing the scratch test, so why would they, why would they put my film in when I don't even have a good poster?

00:35:20.755 --> 00:35:22.297
If that makes sense, yeah, I don't even have a good poster if that makes sense.

00:35:22.318 --> 00:35:27.264
Yeah, it's almost like it's not benefiting them to have your film in their festival, even if it might be good.

00:35:27.264 --> 00:35:29.157
Like the poster is what sort of sells it?

00:35:29.157 --> 00:35:33.201
It sounds like the festival game is like a whole nother ballpark.

00:35:33.201 --> 00:35:40.516
There's lots of little mini lessons that you sort of going on through this journey, like you finished the filming, you've done the editing and the post and now it's like marketing and film festivals.

00:35:40.516 --> 00:35:46.132
Are there festivals?

00:35:46.132 --> 00:35:50.347
Are there any that you've sort of submitted to that you could tell us about, and what was the process like for for actually submitting?

00:35:50.367 --> 00:35:50.869
to those film festivals.

00:35:50.869 --> 00:36:00.751
Yeah, and just just to reiterate, like there is, there's a lot of stuff that I've learned that I I'm not going to talk about on the instagram just yet, because the instagram is meant to be like this marketing thing.

00:36:00.751 --> 00:36:12.331
So if, like a film fest, if a festival director goes to the instagram and sees me saying, oh, like, these are the negative, these are the things you've got to watch out for with festivals, it's sort of like, say, well, I don't want this guy to come to my festival because he's going to talk shit.

00:36:12.331 --> 00:36:18.210
Um, so like, I'm forced to like sort of stop being honest on that until the festival run is over.

00:36:18.210 --> 00:36:23.039
So I am learning, but I'm just I'm not able to share right now publicly on that.

00:36:23.300 --> 00:36:28.153
But yes, the process essentially comes down to one or two things.

00:36:28.454 --> 00:36:37.061
You're either going to apply on a on a festival's website or you're going to apply on film freeway, which essentially it's this.

00:36:37.061 --> 00:36:38.969
It's this website that connects to other festivals.

00:36:38.969 --> 00:36:54.730
I haven't submitted to any festivals directly, because I've realized that if you are prestigious enough to not use film freeway, then you're probably not going to be open to taking my film.

00:36:54.730 --> 00:36:59.967
Not that it's like bad or anything, but like I'm not that well like there's.

00:36:59.967 --> 00:37:04.257
There's nothing else that I've done that's big enough to get me into these.

00:37:04.257 --> 00:37:07.123
So that level of prestigious festival, if that makes sense.

00:37:07.123 --> 00:37:25.811
So it's basically just being film freeway and that essentially just comes down to you uploading your film uh, you know, putting a director's bio, putting information on your cast and crew, a poster trailer, like you can put everything on a film freeway and then you essentially just choose what festival you want to submit to and you submit it.

00:37:25.811 --> 00:37:27.900
Like you can put everything on a freeway and then you essentially just choose what festival you want to submit to and you submit.

00:37:27.838 --> 00:37:35.550
It's pretty streamlined, yeah, so that's accessible to anybody who sort of has made or is a filmmaker that is aspiring.

00:37:35.550 --> 00:37:47.304
So what sort of tips would you be able to give to these aspiring filmmakers now, having done quite a few short films yourself and being on a number of like filmmaking sets and being in the writing game for a little while?

00:37:47.304 --> 00:37:53.782
What's something that you'd tell somebody that's either just starting their career or is just sort of developed their first or second film?

00:37:54.231 --> 00:37:56.655
so, yeah, let's start from the bottom and go to the top.

00:37:56.655 --> 00:38:06.610
Um, if you, if you, if you haven't done any, even made any films before, um, you need to just get on set some like volunteer, you have to volunteer, you have to.

00:38:06.610 --> 00:38:14.114
When I first started like you needed to volunteer, like it was crazy to think that you're going to get on set and like get paid.

00:38:14.114 --> 00:38:23.210
Now it's sort of like shifted a bit where it's like you're crazy to think you're going to get on set, like you're going to be able to get anyone on set volunteering.

00:38:23.210 --> 00:38:29.065
I, if you've got nothing, if you've got no experience on set, like you're going to be able to get anyone on set volunteering.

00:38:29.065 --> 00:38:31.110
If you've got nothing, if you've got no experience, you need to volunteer.

00:38:31.110 --> 00:38:34.588
You need to just offer your work for free, just to learn and to network a little bit.

00:38:34.588 --> 00:38:38.097
If you're going to film school, you need to be shooting something every week.

00:38:38.097 --> 00:38:41.376
It doesn't have to be a short film, it can just be a scene, but you need to.

00:38:41.376 --> 00:38:46.079
The whole point of film school is to network and to build a portfolio.

00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:55.030
So you know, if you, if you're shooting stuff consistently, you're doing both of those Like from there, I would really just encourage people to just keep active in their network.

00:38:55.050 --> 00:39:01.615
Like, if you've my thing, like, once I finished film school, I sort of like I had my network and I just thought, like these are the guys that I'm going to be with forever.

00:39:02.277 --> 00:39:30.963
And you know, when I went back to make Crossroads, like I brought on three people from my network Like they were, you know, my DAP, the camera assistant and my producer, my co-producer, I should say but I don't think they had made any narrative projects since, like the last time we had worked together, so like there was a little bit of a gap with them, but everyone else, like had just moved on from filmmaking completely.

00:39:30.963 --> 00:39:51.860
So you really need to just you need to constantly be growing your network, because if you're not growing it, it's it's actually dwindling, and that's something that I've noticed is very important in writing, like you know, I dabbled in writing for 10 years and I never wrote anything that was half decent.

00:39:51.860 --> 00:40:02.896
I met three other writers that were sort of like on my level, had my vibe, and in two years I've like, like I'm a pretty good writer now, yeah, like, so it's important.

00:40:03.550 --> 00:40:04.699
Yeah, networking I think is really important.

00:40:04.699 --> 00:40:16.036
And networking I think is really important and, like with the writing space, I think there's a lot of people out there that can tell you sort of how to do it or lots of like short courses that can tell you all the different things that you need to know broadly.

00:40:16.036 --> 00:40:21.594
But I think it's a lot about finding what works for you, and you said you know, finding the people that you sort of vibe with what?

00:40:21.594 --> 00:40:23.637
Finding the people that you vibe with what do you enjoy to write?

00:40:23.637 --> 00:40:24.619
Now?

00:40:24.619 --> 00:40:26.101
Is it still in the crime vein?

00:40:26.101 --> 00:40:28.324
Are you looking elsewhere?

00:40:28.324 --> 00:40:33.193
What sort of things?

00:40:33.213 --> 00:40:33.815
excite you in terms of writing.

00:40:33.815 --> 00:40:35.380
Now, generally it's always crime.

00:40:35.380 --> 00:40:46.856
It's just such a great way to put people in situations that refuel truth, if that makes sense.

00:40:46.856 --> 00:40:49.311
Um, you know, sink or swim.

00:40:49.652 --> 00:41:12.130
There's not many other genres that are sink or swim, and the thing about crime is like you can, you know you could get someone like walter white and break me bad just like the average guy, put him in this like really insane scenario and then, like we're gonna see what he's made of, whereas, like you know, even action, all right, let's put this like special ops guy in a crazy situation where he already knows what to do, and that you know.

00:41:12.130 --> 00:41:13.635
That's not like you know.

00:41:13.635 --> 00:41:15.599
That's just not where I vibe, I find.

00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:28.356
I find like my thing with writing is like just putting people in these sort of scenarios that are way above them and they're sort of not equipped enough to handle, and it's like, well, how do you handle that?

00:41:28.356 --> 00:41:28.536
Now?

00:41:28.536 --> 00:41:36.000
I think that is an element of writing that's really interesting to me and because that crime is is up there yeah, I think for crime as well.

00:41:37.061 --> 00:42:04.335
If you're looking at character, I think it also shows such a vast spectrum of characters because you know, obviously you're looking whatever criminals you're kind of looking at, but even the protagonists in a crime sort of drama is looking at different aspects of humanity which would be interesting to explore as well, I'd imagine yeah, like you know, the godfather is on one side of the spectrum and like breaking bad is on the other side of the spectrum, like those are Bad is on the other side of the spectrum.

00:42:04.355 --> 00:42:14.639
Like those are two way, like two very different starting positions, two very different characters, but you know they're still in the crime genre, so there is a lot of variance with it.

00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:26.351
Like you can start with, you know, you can start with like the average guy who's like never committed a crime before, or you could start with like a mob boss, and yeah, there's a lot of room between that spectrum for what you just said.

00:42:26.813 --> 00:42:30.851
So I completely agree yeah, and I think that's that's what sort of draws me to crime anyway.

00:42:30.851 --> 00:42:44.135
Is this the, the character and the characterization and the way that that's put to screen is how relatable is this person that may be doing something that's absolutely abhorrent, but there is like a human aspect to them that sort of draws you to that.

00:42:44.135 --> 00:42:52.701
Or then, alternatively, with an antagonist, with a protagonist, is, you know, putting them like this regular person that you would absolutely relate to?

00:42:52.701 --> 00:43:00.836
Putting them in a situation when it's absolutely unthinkable and watching them do things in that vein and then having the audience sort of question that as well in themselves.

00:43:00.836 --> 00:43:14.257
So I think the relationship between character and audience in crime is really, really good, and I think it's also a really good way to provide tension as the story goes on, because, as you said, the stakes are a single swim or life or death in a lot of cases.

00:43:14.257 --> 00:43:16.041
So that's really awesome.

00:43:16.041 --> 00:43:22.478
Man, do you have a favorite go-to crime TV show or movie?

00:43:22.478 --> 00:43:24.552
That is just your thing.

00:43:26.597 --> 00:43:39.480
Better Call always like just up there for me, you know, and it's crime, like on the surface it's crime, but there's like so much of that, you know, fancy lovey-dovey character stuff as well, like it's the.

00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:41.264
The genre just has so much room for that.

00:43:41.264 --> 00:43:51.391
And that's another thing where, like a lot of going back to like our earlier discussion, I think a lot of australians are, like you know, reluctant to attach their thing to a genre.

00:43:51.391 --> 00:44:03.934
But you know, better course always just such a awesome exploration of character or characters, I should say, and it's, it's in the crime genre.

00:44:03.934 --> 00:44:09.860
Honestly, your last statement, just really, you said it perfectly.

00:44:09.860 --> 00:44:11.661
I'd just truly be repeating what you said.

00:44:12.041 --> 00:44:13.463
Yeah, no thanks man.

00:44:13.463 --> 00:44:15.284
Yeah, I just.

00:44:15.284 --> 00:44:22.989
I really like the crime genre as well, and I think that it's one that shows the true sort of base of all aspects of humanity.

00:44:22.989 --> 00:44:29.717
So are you the type of person as well when you're writing, do you are actually viewing things like that?

00:44:29.717 --> 00:44:39.958
Looking at dialogue specifically, because I know that some people have said, when they're doing screenwriting and things like that, dialogue can be particularly hard to to get and write authentically.

00:44:39.958 --> 00:44:41.563
Is that something that you find as a challenge?

00:44:43.835 --> 00:44:44.476
um, big time.

00:44:44.476 --> 00:44:47.110
I, to be honest, I don't think I've ever done it.

00:44:47.110 --> 00:44:56.260
You know, dialogue is sort of the last thing you want to do and it's it's sort of like don't get me wrong like I'll write dialogue as we go and like I'll try to do a good job of it.

00:44:56.260 --> 00:45:03.416
But, to be honest, you're never going to do an amazing job of dialogue if everything else is, like you know, perfect.

00:45:03.416 --> 00:45:10.672
Um, and, to be honest, I don't think I've ever gone into that point where I'm just like I think I'll just sit here and do dialogue today because everything else is ready.

00:45:10.672 --> 00:45:13.702
It's like I just it's, it's a never, never ending battle.

00:45:13.882 --> 00:45:18.297
Yeah, looking at, this whole project in your career so far, we usually sort of end with a with the most valuable takeaway.

00:45:18.297 --> 00:45:25.030
So from your, your experience with like crossroads or park bench, or even in your career so far, we usually sort of end with a most valuable takeaway.

00:45:25.030 --> 00:45:40.300
So from your experience with like Crossroads or Park Bench, or even in your writing sort of experience, what's something that you would share as a most valuable takeaway for you or the biggest learning that has occurred for you in the space of filmmaking for you so far?

00:45:41.152 --> 00:45:55.514
Yeah, I think if I'm just going to get to something that's really applicable, that anyone listening can take away and do, is just write something a little bit more mature and, you know, cast two experienced actors to pull it off.

00:45:58.449 --> 00:45:59.211
You know, you can.

00:46:00.737 --> 00:46:10.393
I feel like you know, when you make it, like when you produce a film, when you direct a film, everyone that comes on board is coming on board for various reasons.

00:46:10.413 --> 00:46:15.182
Generally it's like to to get something on their portfolio to help themselves out.

00:46:15.182 --> 00:47:05.074
That's why money is so good, because once you pay people, it's like all right, well, I can like now I'm here for money and the way that I get the money is by doing a good job for this guy, not doing a good job for myself, but with actors, like if you, if you write something that requires actors that are a bit older, because again, like coming from the film school days, like it's just like, oh yeah, everyone is like a hit 20 year old and they're like doing 20 year old things and it sort of limits you like I cast adapters that have a wave of experience and, for the first time, like I was really just sitting down and like learning from someone else and I never had that experience before, like I sort of regret not doing it earlier, because I would have come so much further, so much faster if I just elected to work with more experienced actors.

00:47:05.697 --> 00:47:09.422
So that's definitely something yeah, pulling out the best in you as well.

00:47:09.422 --> 00:47:17.849
I think is is what I'm hearing just because they're able to communicate with you what their sort of intentions are.

00:47:17.849 --> 00:47:24.534
What they're reading is with the script, but then also in that working relationship with you, in that professionalism, it sounds like it was a really rewarding experience.

00:47:25.936 --> 00:47:35.795
A hundred percent and like the way that actors break down a script is like it's almost like the best writing education I got.

00:47:35.795 --> 00:47:36.197
Like you know, I did.

00:47:36.197 --> 00:47:44.958
I did a few subjects of writing at uni and, like the actors, the actors know better than the teachers, to be honest, because they have to.

00:47:44.958 --> 00:47:57.221
They have to, otherwise they just say they're just going up and essentially BSing, which, yeah, you might BS yourself through like the beginning, but if you're going to be doing it for so many years 10, 20 years you're going to learn a thing or two and you're going to stop doing that.

00:47:57.221 --> 00:48:14.556
So I feel like they actually got me to become a better a way better writer, because you know, not just because of what you said, but because they had a lot of questions and those questions make you think and they make you have answers and they make you, you know, put that in the script, at it like next time, if that makes sense.

00:48:14.956 --> 00:48:15.579
Yeah, that does.

00:48:15.579 --> 00:48:20.034
Yeah, michael, thanks for joining me today and I really do appreciate it.

00:48:20.034 --> 00:48:24.215